Another new player

Deacon wrote:
Well, some of us are watching from the sidelines, so we can't see what the paper reports.

I think you should have stayed in g10. It’s getting very interesting. Plenty of disputes.

jamesbond007 wrote:

Deacon wrote:
Well, some of us are watching from the sidelines, so we can't see what the paper reports.

I think you should have stayed in g10. It’s getting very interesting. Plenty of disputes.

Do agree, was a real shame you left Deacon, would be great to see you back (whether as Poland or not)

Prunesquallor wrote:Not at all, Jason.  Yes, the official name of the position is Knights of Malta.  However, historically speaking, they are one and the same (i.e., the Grandmaster of the Order was also the "sovereign" of Malta) though there are certainly some interesting aspects and nuances to this dual role based on my reading of the history of Malta so far, compared to a "normal" nation.

So it is possible that Richard is making a distinction between the Order as an organization and Malta as a nation when it comes population/recruits.  Or perhaps the 1,000 figure really is an accurate number for Valletta and if I start branching out to other towns and islands, more population will become available to me??

Your reasoning makes sense...as does the "ask your advisors" advise from other players

Also, clearly brain is a little slow at the moment, but the Knights are an ancestor of the Order of St John, who have a good museum in Clerkenwell, London, which has an interesting section on the time in Malta. In particular seem to remember they had a very impressive church ship model of a galley of the type used by the Knights in the 17th/18th Century

Papa Clement wrote: The simplest (and probably fairest) way it could be set up would be for you to have Malta as a micro-country run as any other position without any impact on the Papacy so you could get your recruits from Malta and develop the island in the same way Jason2 can with his Hanseatic League.

By the way, I do think this is how it's set up but it just happens to be an even micro-er position than the Hanseatic League.  I do have recruits available to me from Malta.  It's just a very small number.  It goes without saying, you should feel no obligation to supply Malta with recruits. I didn't realize what I was asking, to be honest, and that recruiting from a foreign nation meant taking surplus recruits that would be otherwise available to that nation.  It makes perfect sense in hindsight.

Jason2 wrote:
Your reasoning makes sense...as does the "ask your advisors" advise from other players

Also, clearly brain is a little slow at the moment, but the Knights are an ancestor of the Order of St John, who have a good museum in Clerkenwell, London, which has an interesting section on the time in Malta.  In particular seem to remember they had a very impressive church ship model of a galley of the type used by the Knights in the 17th/18th Century

Yes, indeed. I would have loved to have seen that model. I ordered a book on the ships of the Order (The Maltese Hospitaller Sailing Ship Squadron 1701-1798), which I'm looking forward to reading.

Prunesquallor wrote:

Jason2 wrote:
Your reasoning makes sense...as does the "ask your advisors" advise from other players

Also, clearly brain is a little slow at the moment, but the Knights are an ancestor of the Order of St John, who have a good museum in Clerkenwell, London, which has an interesting section on the time in Malta.  In particular seem to remember they had a very impressive church ship model of a galley of the type used by the Knights in the 17th/18th Century

Yes, indeed.  I would have loved to have seen that model.  I ordered a book on the ships of the Order (The Maltese Hospitaller Sailing Ship Squadron 1701-1798), which I'm looking forward to reading.

That's the danger of these games As a result I have a very impressive library on China and am starting to develop one on the Hanseatic League. At least with Scotland, I was buying the books partly while living there and my collection on Roman archaeology (of use for the new Roman game?) is based on the day job

Do not know how much detail the new Grand Master of the Knights of St John wants to go into - but according to my Illustrated History of Pirates and its Chapter of Mediterranian Corsairs:

- Malta was a vassel of the Kingdom of Aragon not the Kingdom of Sicily, in 1700 they were effectively the same but in G10 they may be spliting. Prior to the Knights arrival on Malta the Maltese Corsairs were however licenced from Sicily so you can probably pick who you want to be a vassel off and if matters.

- Easy option is just decide its so nominal that it can be safely ignored. But if you do wish to roll play your "options" their are various players currently claiming to be the King of Aragon and/or Sicily. Of them all I would say it is the current Spanish Govt which needs a bit of public support the most and would probably be more than generous to secure your backing. But the Papal appointed Viceroy of Sicily (The Doge of Genoa) is very charming and has the backing of the Pope in Rome (Hah just wait for one in Avignon to really cause problems!) while the Knights at mostly French and have large estates in France so may be pro Bourbon. Louis XIV in tray is just a bit full at this moment in time so you will probably get more Joy out of the other two and the Papacy if your Character decides to worry about being a vassel.

- Note if you do decide that King Carlos is his feudal overlord you may also decide it is your duty to come up with a cunning plan to rescue him from the evil Duke of Savoy. Pull this one off and your honour score rockets......get it wrong and get Carlos killed going over the wall and best of luck trying to explain that one to the Emperor! On the bright side King Carlos Government in Madrid would probably not be that bothered and would probaly thank yoy nicely for trying even if you drop him off a 60 foot wall.

- Historically most Knights were French and the order obtained a large chunk of its revenue from its Estates in France. Might be worth while trying the GM about order income from estates in France, Spain and Italy. But historically this left the order open to pressure from Governments. Historically, with most of the order being French their attacks on Muslim shipping lead to problems for French trade and pilgrims in the Levant and pressue on the Order to stop it!

- Interestingly in G10 as semi-French Corsairs in the Med your are not alone......as the Cannel Corsairs have been expanding the area of operations. Friends? or nasty rivals who are now in your waters.

- On subject of Maltese Privateering or the "Corsa" which at times employed up to 20% of the adult male population of Malta. This was run by the "Tribunale degli Armamenti" with the Grand Master getting a 10% share of the take. Think what was interesting was that :

- The Maltese also stopped Christain as well as Muslim ships the "visita" to in theory enforce historic Papal bulls against trading with Muslims. Venetian and Christian Greek shipping being the usual target. The Knights normally ignored French shipping due to political pressure and English & Dutch ships (too well armed) even if these were blatently trading with the muslims. Most Christain Captains paid a "on the spot" fine rather than risk having cargo and passengers seized as muslim. Then moaned like hell to their Governments.

- Interesting from the legal point of view is that if you were a Christian and had ships/goods seized or fines levied wrongly you could take a case to the "Tribunale" and the final court of appeal was with the Pope in Rome..........That does it no way is Forbin etc signing up to the CORSA if final cases are in Rome! I wonder if Scots legal firms will now open up on Malta.

- Maltese used mix of Galleys and sailing ships with the Galleys being rowed by mix of Muslim Slaves, Criminals from Italian city-states sentanced to a spot of Holy War and some "Volunteers" - the Buonavoglie who were allowed to grow a mustache and were chained to their oar by only one shackle. "Volunteer" is probably not quite correct, debt bondage is probably closed to the mark.

- As well as rowing the Galleys other Muslim slaves worked in all parts of the Islands economy and could even run their own businesses. Like in Algiers the intent being to earn enough to pay your ransom if this was not paid from home. Conditions and treatment for captives in both Malta and North Africa were identical but it was believed that it was tougher to be a galley slave on a Maltese Galley than a Muslim one. For starters the Maltese tended to be heavier ships with more guns so the rowers had to work harder.

Basically in game - the Grand Master could totally ignore "Privateering" and just treat it is as something which happens under the heading of "levant trade" and "tax income" or make himself Chairman of the "Tribunale degli Armamenti" and go all in.

But be warned privateering is not all wine, women and song .......the legal stuff is nightmare!

Thanks, Stuart.  Lots of good info in there.  Most if not all of which is consistent with what I've read in the Cavaliero book. As for the final appeal laying in Rome, that is true though loopholes were attempted by the knights of the order with varying but ultimately limited success as the 18th century wore on.  Like you said, the conflicting obligations and the legal stuff were a nightmare.  I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.  And in case it wasn't obvious yet, I plan to take a hands-on approach to Maltese privateering

Stuart Bailey wrote:Do not know how much detail the new Grand Master of the Knights of St John wants to go into - but according to my Illustrated History of Pirates and its Chapter of Mediterranian Corsairs:

- Malta was a vassel of the Kingdom of Aragon not the Kingdom of Sicily, in 1700 they were effectively the same but in G10 they may be spliting.  Prior to the Knights arrival on Malta the Maltese Corsairs were however licenced from Sicily so you can probably pick who you want to be a vassel off and if matters.

- Easy option is just decide its so nominal that it can be safely ignored.  But if you do wish to roll play your "options" their are various players currently claiming to be the King of Aragon and/or Sicily.  Of them all I would say it is the current Spanish Govt which needs a bit of public support the most and would probably be more than generous to secure your backing.  But the Papal appointed Viceroy of Sicily (The Doge of Genoa) is very charming and has the backing of the Pope in Rome (Hah just wait for one in Avignon to really cause problems!) while the Knights at mostly French and have large estates in France so may be pro Bourbon.  Louis XIV in tray is just a bit full at this moment in time so you will probably get more Joy out of the other two and the Papacy if your Character decides to worry about being a vassel.

- Note if you do decide that King Carlos is his feudal overlord you may also decide it is your duty to come up with a cunning plan to rescue him from the evil Duke of Savoy.  Pull this one off and your honour score rockets......get it wrong and get Carlos killed going over the wall and best of luck trying to explain that one to the Emperor!  On the bright side King Carlos Government in Madrid would probably not be that bothered and would probaly thank yoy nicely for trying even if you drop him off a 60 foot wall.

- Historically most Knights were French and the order obtained a large chunk of its revenue from its Estates in France.  Might be worth while trying the GM about order income from estates in France, Spain and Italy.  But historically this left the order open to pressure from Governments.  Historically, with most of the order being French their attacks on Muslim shipping lead to problems for French trade and pilgrims in the Levant and pressue on the Order to stop it!

- Interestingly in G10 as semi-French Corsairs in the Med your are not alone......as the Cannel Corsairs have been expanding the area of operations.  Friends? or nasty rivals who are now in your waters.

- On subject of Maltese Privateering or the "Corsa" which at times employed up to 20% of the adult male population of Malta.  This was run by the "Tribunale degli Armamenti" with the Grand Master getting a 10% share of the take.  Think what was interesting was that :

- The Maltese also stopped Christain as well as Muslim ships the "visita" to in theory enforce historic Papal bulls against trading with Muslims.  Venetian and Christian Greek shipping being the usual target.  The Knights normally ignored French shipping due to political pressure and English & Dutch ships (too well armed) even if these were blatently trading with the muslims.  Most Christain Captains paid a "on the spot" fine rather than risk having cargo and passengers seized as muslim.  Then moaned like hell to their Governments.

- Interesting from the legal point of view is that  if you were a Christian and had ships/goods seized or fines levied wrongly you could take a case to the "Tribunale" and the final court of appeal was with the Pope in Rome..........That does it no way is Forbin etc signing up to the CORSA if final cases are in Rome!  I wonder if Scots legal firms will now open up on Malta.

- Maltese used mix of Galleys and sailing ships with the Galleys being rowed by mix of Muslim Slaves, Criminals from Italian city-states sentanced to a spot of Holy War and some "Volunteers" - the Buonavoglie who were allowed to grow a mustache and were chained to their oar by only one shackle.  "Volunteer" is probably not quite correct, debt bondage is probably closed to the mark.

- As well as rowing the Galleys other Muslim slaves worked in all parts of the Islands economy and could even run their own businesses.  Like in Algiers the intent being to earn enough to pay your ransom if this was not paid from home.  Conditions and treatment for captives in both Malta and North Africa were identical but it was believed that it was tougher to be a galley slave on a Maltese Galley than a Muslim one.  For starters the Maltese tended to be heavier ships with more guns so the rowers had to work harder.

Basically in game - the Grand Master could totally ignore "Privateering" and just treat it is as something which happens under the heading of "levant trade" and "tax income" or make himself Chairman of the "Tribunale degli Armamenti" and go all in.

But be warned privateering is not all wine, women and song .......the legal stuff is nightmare!  

[quote="Prunesquallor"]Thanks, Stuart.  Lots of good info in there.  Most if not all of which is consistent with what I've read in the Cavaliero book. As for the final appeal laying in Rome, that is true though loopholes were attempted by the knights of the order with varying but ultimately limited success as the 18th century wore on.  Like you said, the conflicting obligations and the legal stuff were a nightmare.  I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.  And in case it wasn't obvious yet, I plan to take a hands-on approach to Maltese privateering

Delighted to have another semi French privateer in the game.

Allowing the new legal defence of: "It was not me it was him over in Malta" or even "It was not me it was those b******d channel interlopers"

The later being a really good defence in Roman Courts.

I don't think any reputable Scottish legal firms will be opening branches in Malta...sounds more like a market for that dodgy Shunt & Co...

...and if these new Corsairs do misread any maps and end up in the North Sea...I am sure the Maltese will be accorded the same treatment of the their French cousins by the renowned Scottish Legal System...*sigh* do I need to build another gallows...think for variation the Maltese one can be on Cowgate...

I really don't know that anyone has anything to worry about. Seeing as this is my first time playing, in all likelihood, I'll end up making a series of mistakes leading to the sinking of the entire Maltese fleet and ruination of the order.

Prunesquallor wrote:leading to the sinking of the entire Maltese fleet

You haven't given me a chance to sink mine (in the best traditions of TGOK) yet.

Sounds like an opportunity to work together as the Maltese are known to be superb sailors