What’s your best Roman meme?

I have no words and no idea. Gone from having the most "influential" (numbers) party in Rome to having NO-ONE

Which one of you has Pomponious as a high placed "spy" ?

Would be nice to know what happened to the 160 Senators no longer in the Senate? Has there been a night of the long knives.

J Flower wrote:Would be nice to know what happened to the 160 Senators no longer in the Senate? Has there been a night of the long knives.

One of the "missing" ones would seem to be Senator Piso who seemingly has been lowered in social class over disputed debts to his builders !?

This seems a bit iffy to me for two reasons:

1) If you can only be in the Senate if your are debt free the Senate would have a lot more members missing than 160 !! As due to cost of games and winning election to the Senate plus need to own a million denerii in Italian land to meet the property requirement Senators were famously cash poor for multi millionaries and lived in a world of debts and re-mortages.

In this as in so much else Julius Caesar led the way and was massively in debt for most of his life his aedileship games and election campaign's to become Pontifex Maximus and then Consul setting new records for spending mostly borrowed money.

2) The only person with the power to reduce a Senator in social rank is the Censor - one of the many positions held by Nero. As he was out cold and then dead who lowered Senator Piso social status? Ok we do have three people claiming to hold Nero position(s) but have they been properly elected Censor? I think not. Oh dear, Oh dear now the crimes of the gang of three - Cordus, the one in Asia and the latest one in Rome mount up.

On the plus side if the Senate is 160 Senators light that leaves plenty of room for new Senators from Iberia and the civilized bits of Gaul are allowed to join the club of the great and good. In order to wear new white Toga's to debate fire regulations and hold forth in polished Latin on the evils of the Parthian King of Kings and the Blue boy and his pet Druids meddling in Roman affair's.

Ovid, Marcus and Guius better known as the OMG bookmakers now offering odds on which of the gang of three is working for which foreign troublemaker.

PS Noted that the King of Kings is saying attack on Nero was him and his Gods. While the Blue Boy denies it was him and his magicians. As all Barbarians lie draw your own conculsions.

count-de-monet wrote:I have no words and no idea.  Gone from having the most "influential" (numbers) party in Rome to having NO-ONE

Which one of you has Pomponious as a high placed "spy" ?

As said Ovid, Marcus and Guius better known as the OMG bookmakers are now running a book on which of the three men now claiming to be in Latin the Dictator for Life (In English normally translated as Emperor) are actually in the pay of which foreign trouble maker. But my own theory is Pomponious is now owned by the chaos Gods on Mount Agema.

Starting to think Emperors are like buses - Rome spends a decade worrying that its current Emperor as no heir and suddenly three come along. Though I tend to think that compared to say the claim of Octavian - who had 30 Legions, the support of quality like Marcus Agrippa and all the wealth and prestige of the Julian Family at his back - the current three claims are pretty piss poor:-

Cordus - "I am Emperor because I have support of a majority of the Guard".............bunch of show ponies and you do not even have making of the best part of the Guard.

Avola - "I am Emperor because I have backing of a bunch of Asian Greeks and a single 2nd rank Legion"............so what? Plenty of others have a lot more Legions than that. Asian Greeks do not have vote and on basis of Citizen votes from Legion what is that 6,000 votes in total?

Pomponious - "I am Emperor because I had 40 blokes in the Senate shouting for me"............that is not an election by the Roman people in their voting tribes that is a small say 10% of existing members political demo in favour of their chosen one. Think Pomponious forgets that SPQR stand's for the Senate and People of Rome. The Senate can advise the people, even veto unsuitable candidates and the people voting in their Tribes will probably listen to the advise of their natural leaders if they make sence. So the Alii will probably listen to Germanicus, the Uplii will probably listen too Trajan and vote for Magistrates of good reputation who present themselves well if recommended by the leaders of the Gens.

But who the hell is Pomponious? What is his program for Rome? Has he actually done anything other than acting as a mouthpiece for Egyptain grain exports (spiffing chaps no doubt) that qualifies him to supreme command of the Roman Army?

Team Rome may well be in a crisis which needs the appointment of a Dictator to save the situation but I am not sure if any of the current three are doing a very good job of saying why we are in a crisis and why they are best person to lead Rome out of it?

On subject of possible crisis has anyone noticed that the Gov of Syria now seems to be loyally following the orders from Nero he has ignored for a year and is has telegraphed his march into the East with a good chunk of the Roman Army in the East. Do not mean to worry anyone but said historical commander lead a couple of Legions into a ambush in the early stages of the Jewish revolt. If he repeats that on a larger scale even Corduba will agree that is a proper crisis and we need a Consul or a Dictator on the ground in the East. Any volunteers?

count-de-monet wrote:I have no words and no idea.  Gone from having the most "influential" (numbers) party in Rome to having NO-ONE

Which one of you has Pomponious as a high placed "spy" ?

Frankly I too am mystified!! It’s a strange place and strange times that Senate building….

There is another option: Pomponioius has stated that if his semi-fait accompli is accepted then all Roman commander will keep their current roles for 7 years…..

For one who wishes to build thier position (subdue barbarians, build a wonderful roman wonderland in Greece yadda, yadda) that might work?

But what if in agreeing that others dont? Who will suffer if force of arms is resorted to?

And what are the bloody Praetorians up to?

Oh to have sight of the scrolls on Mount Agema.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Pomponious - "I am Emperor because I had 40 blokes in the Senate shouting for me"............that is not an election by the Roman people in their voting tribes that is a small say 10% of existing members political demo in favour of their chosen one.  Think Pomponious forgets that SPQR stand's for the Senate and People of Rome.  The Senate can advise the people, even veto unsuitable candidates and the people voting in their Tribes will probably listen to the advise of their natural leaders if they make sence.  So the Alii will probably listen to Germanicus, the Uplii will probably listen too Trajan and vote for Magistrates of good reputation who present themselves well if recommended by the leaders of the Gens.

Stuart - by the laws and tradition of this time, what is the "right" way to nominate an Emperor without a successor? If Sentorial acclamation is a short-cut to stability, then perhaps we can accept it for the moment, whilst dealing with Cordus (a demonstrated rebel)?

Johntindall wrote:

Stuart Bailey wrote:Pomponious - "I am Emperor because I had 40 blokes in the Senate shouting for me"............that is not an election by the Roman people in their voting tribes that is a small say 10% of existing members political demo in favour of their chosen one.  Think Pomponious forgets that SPQR stand's for the Senate and People of Rome.  The Senate can advise the people, even veto unsuitable candidates and the people voting in their Tribes will probably listen to the advise of their natural leaders if they make sence.  So the Alii will probably listen to Germanicus, the Uplii will probably listen too Trajan and vote for Magistrates of good reputation who present themselves well if recommended by the leaders of the Gens.

Stuart - by the laws and tradition of this time, what is the "right" way to nominate an Emperor without a successor? If Sentorial acclamation is a short-cut to stability, then perhaps we can accept it for the moment, whilst dealing with Cordus (a demonstrated rebel)?

Hi John - Basically the whole problem in 69 AD and in may ways the point of the game is that there was not a generally agreed "right" way !!

While ruling as De-facto Kings for reasons of history, health and not ending up like Julius Caesar in a pool of their own blood......Octavian and his heirs rather fudged the issue of the nature of their authority over the Roman State - where they elected Republican Magistrates as they claimed in Rome? Or was it an inherited Monarchy on the basis that if it looks like a duck and goes quack it probably is a duck?

As its 100% sure that Pomponius or anyone else claiming to be Nero replacement is not related too Nero or been adopted by him.........the political crisis after the death of Nero is that the male line of the Julio-Claudian family had ended and you had all this power and authority now ownerless. So any claim to authority has to come from somewhere else, to date we have:-

1) Cordus claiming authority based on the Guard.............and a lot of Generals and others making nasty comments about the Guard being a bunch of show ponies. Also he messed up by not killing Nero before he made his claim and not making it in Rome so he looked like a traitor and a rebel and was not in position to strong-arm the Senate into rubber stamping his claim.


2) Aviola making a claim based on the Army .........and a lot of Generals and others making nasty comments about you have 1 second rank Legion call that any Army?


3) Now we have Pomponius claiming supreme authority based on a large faction in the Senate. Which is better legal claim than 1 and 2 above but also jumping the process followed even by Octavian etc. According to boreing pedantic legal types like Trajan the Elder the legal route would be for the Roman People ie all Male Citizens with a vote to elect two cousuls and in a really bad crisis they can appoint a Dictator.

Octavian's method to work this system was to make sure that only two people stood as Consul such as him and his right hand man. Then it was a crisis because Octavian said it was, only instead of being made Dictator for period of the crisis he was made Dictator for Life. While also holding posts of Censor and High Priest and generally the annual Consul ship as well, with the Dictator bit being more like a military position = Supreme Commander of all Roman Forces who he paid and rewarded out of own resources which included things like ownership of Eqypt as a private estate.

In the view of Trajan the Elder being the ex-mouthpiece for Egyptain grain exporters (Spiffing chaps) does not qualify you for supreme command of the Roman Army and all three of them have tried to usurpe the supreme authority of the Roman People to elect their own Magistrates. Not saying Roman elections and the election of Octavian, Tiberious etc were free and fair. Bribery and outright intimidiation was the norm but the current three do not even tick these boxes!

Historically, what 69AD proved was that the source of authority in the Roman Empire was the Army though the fact that all Senior Roman Commanders were also Senators or from Senatorial class and would continue to be so next hundred years tends to blur the issue. Think if anyone thinks their character would look good in Purple I can see too possible paths:-

1) Ignore legal complaints - win civil war, leave your rivals in the dust and annoying pendants like Trajan the elder bleeding to death under a statue of Cato. This would seem to be current plan of Cordus put I can see a few problems with staying alive to enjoy your victory.

or

2) Keep boring Senators with legal concerns on side and get yourself of someone on your side elected Consul. Then all you need is a major crisis like our beloved Gov of Syria leading our Eastern Army into the desert and a Parthian Ambush to convince the Army and the Senate that what is needed is long term steady leadership and get yourself made Dictator for Life (Emperor).

The Genius of Octavian was not only did he (or rather Agrippa) win a civil war and with 30 plus Legions under his direct command (even after Army slimmed down) command unrivaled power and influence. But by carefully ticking all the legal boxes as well and generally not rubbing the noises of Roman Nobles into the fact that he was a de-facto King he won the support of former opponents and died in his bed some 50 years later as a greatly admired father figure of the Roman people. Not bad for somene some see as a teenage gangster.

As for short-cuts and stability all I can say is this is an Agema game and the Chaos Gods on Mount Agema are in full flow !! Either the Roman players fight each other or they are going to end up fighting NPC who may or may not be "influenced" by various Barbarian players who seem to be having a lot more of a fun game than us. My theory is we ignore the mockery and demands for a Emperor right now and stick really close to the old Republican laws of Rome branding Agema NPCs etc as Traitors and agents of the King of Kings and the Blue Boy and his pet Druids.

But I very much doubt if its the right way or a short cut to stability because the Gods of Chaos on Mount Agema are going to make sure no way is the right way and no short cuts exist !! But if agents of chaos can only mock and we can point to actual laws......probably makes no difference at all but I like to feel my character is in the "right" no matter if he is a poor, over-worked Ottoman civil servent or the kind hearted but Cardinal and Queen dominated Hapsburg King of Spain in Glori, or a spiffing chap in Scrabble. And yes I agree that some people do not agree and think some of my characters suffer delusions brought on by reading too much of their own propaganda.

So finally got round to looking at the Rome turn, got to say that was not the outcome I was expecting! I am disappointed that Nero didn't say "infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me!"

I must say I did enjoy Stuart's summary and agree with almost all of it (except of course his usual attack on everyone's favourite Caledonian, the peaceful, friendly and not in the slightest bit threatening Calgacus)

Clearly this leads me to the solution to the whole "who is emperor" issue...well the solution that doesn't involve mass slaughter...the Romans call in a neutral arbitrator (in the spirit of Captain Picard for the Klingons or Edward I for the Scots) to decide the matter for them...and of course there is only one man trustworthy enough for such a role...Calgacus!

Jason2 wrote:So finally got round to looking at the Rome turn, got to say that was not the outcome I was expecting!  I am disappointed that Nero didn't say "infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me!"

I must say I did enjoy Stuart's summary and agree with almost all of it (except of course his usual  attack on everyone's favourite Caledonian, the peaceful, friendly and not in the slightest bit threatening Calgacus)

Clearly this leads me to the solution to the whole "who is emperor" issue...well the solution that doesn't involve mass slaughter...the Romans call in a neutral arbitrator (in the spirit of Captain Picard for the Klingons or Edward I for the Scots) to decide the matter for them...and of course there is only one man trustworthy enough for such a role...Calgacus!

Oh! The of the men of the North. Its certainly been a strange turn.....

I agree with you and that Rome will struggle with the Fates. It would be a massive Glory Fail to ask in a third party to adjudicate!

So its back to the drawing board and so on.....

Regor wrote:

Jason2 wrote:So finally got round to looking at the Rome turn, got to say that was not the outcome I was expecting!  I am disappointed that Nero didn't say "infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me!"

I must say I did enjoy Stuart's summary and agree with almost all of it (except of course his usual  attack on everyone's favourite Caledonian, the peaceful, friendly and not in the slightest bit threatening Calgacus)

Clearly this leads me to the solution to the whole "who is emperor" issue...well the solution that doesn't involve mass slaughter...the Romans call in a neutral arbitrator (in the spirit of Captain Picard for the Klingons or Edward I for the Scots) to decide the matter for them...and of course there is only one man trustworthy enough for such a role...Calgacus!

Oh! The of the men of the North. Its certainly been a strange turn.....

I agree with you and that Rome will struggle with the Fates. It would be a massive Glory Fail to ask in a third party to adjudicate!

So its back to the drawing board and so on.....

If Rome is struggling with the "fates" the traditional method is to consult the Sibylline books and then bury alive a couple of Greeks and couple of Celts below the forum.

I think its a jolly good show that Calgacus has volunteered to take the part of one of the Celts in this "consultation".

Be careful what you wish for Mr B, the decent, honourable and not in the slightest bit threatening Calgacus will bring his honour guard with him...try your approach and it will 387 BC all over again...

Jason2 wrote:Be careful what you wish for Mr B, the decent, honourable and not in the slightest bit threatening Calgacus will bring his honour guard with him...try your approach and it will 387 BC all over again...

What happened in 387 BC and did it have anything to do with Iberia?

My characters view of Britannia is that its wet, its cold and it will never pay for its current FIVE Legion garrison. So either the Great Roman Generals in RIB need to get on and complete the sodding invasion which seems to have stalled somewhere south of York after the keys to the Bathhouse got lost and the dog eat Nero's orders.

Or the great Roman Generals need to line up some Chiefs and get them to learn some Latin and how to wear a Toga. Plus promise to only drink best quality Iberian Wine and eat only the best Iberian Olives. Then our great Roman Generals will be able to move about 20% of the first line strength of the Roman Army somewhere where it may do some good.

Do not care what the Roman Army HQ decides is the better option........just so long as they come to a decision and act on it.

After all we have a fall scale war in the East, trouble up on the Rhine, trouble up on the Danuble, trouble south of Egypt, the Jews are revolting, even some some Romans are revolting. So probably leaving five whole Legions watching the rain and doing not a lot is just asking for trouble from the chaos Gods on Mount Agema (Which I believe is somewhere in the Highlands - Caladonian Highlands or Armenian Highlands probably linked on a spiritual plan. Cold and the Eagles pinch your Sheep).

Well once Team Rome are back to the sensible level of government in Rome we might be able to right a few of these wrongs?
Britannia is probable the home of Mount Agema but it’s probably named ironically? I recon it’s somewhere in the midlands where they speak funny or based by the standing stones on that wet windswept plain?
Anyhow the Romans should just hunker down and do what they do best batter thier enemies at home and abroad?

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Jason2 wrote:Be careful what you wish for Mr B, the decent, honourable and not in the slightest bit threatening Calgacus will bring his honour guard with him...try your approach and it will 387 BC all over again...

What happened in 387 BC and did it have anything to do with Iberia?

My characters view of Britannia is that its wet, its cold and it will never pay for its current FIVE Legion garrison.  So either the Great Roman Generals in RIB need to get on and complete the sodding invasion which seems to have stalled somewhere south of York after the keys to the Bathhouse got lost and the dog eat Nero's orders.

Or the great Roman Generals need to line up some Chiefs and get them to learn some Latin and how to wear a Toga.  Plus promise to only drink best quality Iberian Wine and eat only the best Iberian Olives.  Then our great Roman Generals will be able to move about 20% of the first line strength of the Roman Army somewhere where it may do some good.

Do not care what the Roman Army HQ decides is the better option........just so long as they come to a decision and act on it.

After all we have a fall scale war in the East, trouble up on the Rhine, trouble up on the Danuble, trouble south of Egypt, the Jews are revolting, even some some Romans are revolting.  So probably leaving five whole Legions watching the rain and doing not a lot is just asking for trouble from the chaos Gods on Mount Agema (Which I believe is somewhere in the Highlands - Caladonian Highlands or Armenian Highlands probably linked on a spiritual plan.  Cold and the Eagles pinch your Sheep).

I was thinking of the Sack of Rome by the Senones...I know 390 BC is the traditional date but spent too long associating with Classicists/Romanists/other lovers of the Glory-that-was-men-in-bedsheets who felt the traditional date was incorrect and 387 BC was more accurate

Look Stuart, I know you like to slaughter and massacre anything that isn't nailed down but your option 2 seems the best solution for Rome and Britannia..and again the perfect candidate for the role is that wonderful man, Calgacus. An enlightened Roman leader (an oxymoron perhaps?) could do worse than look a bit forward to Riothamus (other spellings are available) and go "hmmm..."

Regor wrote:Well once Team Rome are back to the sensible level of government in Rome we might be able to right a few of these wrongs?
Britannia is probable the home of Mount Agema but it’s probably named ironically? I recon it’s somewhere in the midlands where they speak funny or based by the standing stones on that wet windswept plain?
Anyhow the Romans should just hunker down and do what they do best batter thier enemies at home and abroad?

Mount Agema sounds like it might be in the Midlands...sounds far too Classical to be somewhere sensible and civilized like Caledonia...

Or perhaps it's in Cambridgeshire and is infact the surviving remnant of Troy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Troy_Once_Stood (note: post may contain nuts...and cashews)

Jason2 wrote:

Regor wrote:Well once Team Rome are back to the sensible level of government in Rome we might be able to right a few of these wrongs?
Britannia is probable the home of Mount Agema but it’s probably named ironically? I recon it’s somewhere in the midlands where they speak funny or based by the standing stones on that wet windswept plain?
Anyhow the Romans should just hunker down and do what they do best batter thier enemies at home and abroad?

Mount Agema sounds like it might be in the Midlands...sounds far too Classical to be somewhere sensible and civilized like Caledonia...

Or perhaps it's in Cambridgeshire and is infact the surviving remnant of Troy  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Troy_Once_Stood   (note: post may contain nuts...and cashews)

If the surviving remnant of Troy is actually in Cambridgeshire, odd that Homer did not say more about the bitter cold and mists or people's Chariots sinking into the fens. Clearly tough lot these pre-Greeks since if I spent 10 days in winter on a North Sea coast let alone ten whole winters would have had a few things to say about the wind going right through you.

Though anyone who fights a war over control of Cornish Tin in Cambridgeshire (Cornish do not even pay attention to things happening in Devon) clearly has a geographic problem which would sort of explain Book 2 and everyone getting lost.

However, if Troy is in Britannia......Rome founded by exiled Prince from Troy..........so Britannia must be ROMAN
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[/quote]

I was thinking of the Sack of Rome by the Senones...I know 390 BC is the traditional date but spent too long associating with Classicists/Romanists/other lovers of the Glory-that-was-men-in-bedsheets who felt the traditional date was incorrect and 387 BC was more accurate

Look Stuart, I know you like to slaughter and massacre anything that isn't nailed down but your option 2 seems the best solution for Rome and Britannia..and again the perfect candidate for the role is that wonderful man, Calgacus.  An enlightened Roman leader (an oxymoron perhaps?) could do worse than look a bit forward to Riothamus (other spellings are available) and go "hmmm..."

[/quote]


Trajan the elder more interested in Roman fire regulations and upholding the laws and Gods of Rome and has no strong feeling about the best course of action for Britannia (but some action would be good).

But I like like to think of him as a very good fashioned and traditional Roman - the type who Neil Oliver no doubt cheered by Jason 2 has called "Dull - bringers of taxation, straight roads and uniforms for dreary jobs with dreary names. Bureacrats and desk-jockeys the lot of them."

Pardon me is I am wrong but I thought it was kind of the traditional in Roman Military campaigns to slaughter and massacre anything that isn't nailed down. And looking at photo's of ship wrecks loaded with statues from Greece I am not sure if being nailed down stopped them either.

Word has reached Rome that Marcus Aponius Saturninus is only 200 miles away, at the head of thousands of cavalry! There was great rejoicing...

Geminus walks into a taverna in Rome. “I’ll have a martinus please!”

Barkeep says, “You mean ‘martini’, right?”

Geminus replied, “If I wanted two I would have said so!”

;-)

Johntindall wrote:Geminus walks into a taverna in Rome. “I’ll have a martinus please!”

Barkeep says, “You mean ‘martini’, right?”

Geminus replied, “If I wanted two I would have said so!”

;-)

Oddly enough someone has just sent a letter to Gerinus saying good idea about making all of these self proclaimed Emperor's outlaws (In Latin "offered to the Gods”).

But he is not sure about allowing the troops who helped proclaim them to share in any cash reward. Since making your commander "Emperor" then knocking him off to fill up the wine kitty is the type of thing the Chaos Gods of Mount Agema can make sound logical if you drink un-watered wine like a Barbarian or more than one Martini at a time.

Does the Roman Demon of Drink paint himself Blue and speak with a Northern accent only the Drunk understand?

Empress Poppaea said to Geminus, "Do you like my new dress?"

Geminus could have sworn for a moment she fluttered her eyelashes at him...



The Agema GM is a fiend...

Johntindall wrote:Geminus could have sworn for a monent she fluttered her eyelashes at him...



The Agema GM is a fiend...

Flipping heck the Empress has stopped being a Red Head and become a blond !!.........is Geminus known to favour fair haired Women? Clearly been spending too much time in the north with all of those Germanic types.

As for Trajan the Elder marrying this bombshell after the death of his wife (who is in perfect health and younger than Trajan.....and better remain that way) seems to me that this is a nasty GM inspired plot to give the poor chap a heart attack !!!!!

However, much as team Rome love, admire and respect the Empress and will lay down their lives to protect her and her daughters. I would point out one small fault with the latest fiendish plot. Under the later Byzantine Empire marrying the wife of the later Emperor or a princess born in the purple became a fairly standard way for Generals and even Civil servents to become Emperor and the Empress had some real legal power other than influence over her husband. But back in the 1st century AD in Rome, men were still fully paid up male chauvenists to a man and women were not even citizens !!

This means that a Woman like slaves, non citizens and foreigners can not be Emperor (Dictator for Life) or command Roman Armies and the title of Empress or Augusta is purely a honourific. In the 3rd century AD Zenoba of Palmaryia tried to set her self up in the East as a Empress but that was in the East were they were used to Queens and Rome acted with total outrage.

Think in 1st century AD if someone does marry the Empress this will make them head of the Julio-Claudian family rather than Emperor which still needs to be "voted through" by the Senate and people of Rome. But being head of the wealth, influence and huge patronage of the Imperial Julio-Claudian family will give you a hell of a leg up on a par or superior to having control of the Guard in Rome.

With control of the Guard something of a busted flush and a liability (Roman commanders split between those who want to wipe out 100% of them and those who want to kill 10% and send the other 90% somewhere like Caladonia or the Syrian Desert to reclaim their honour). Marrying the Empress was no doubt looking like a much better option (see John's photo) than the Guard for anyone who fancies they would look good in purple.

But can you marry someone who Nero has promised to someone else? Poor Otha all he wanted was his Wife and love of his life back and the GM throws things like that in his way and sends him too Judea !! Does he play as a Russian Admiral in other games.

Trajan the Elder's (current) wife Marcia (on left) takes poorly after hearing that the Empress is already making public references to "Trajan and me"...





Geminus' very clever son Antonius reads his father's letter to Claudia. "I just hope and pray my husband is not manipulated by her... (a gesture, possibly meaning "big assets")". Tears were forming as she spoke...

Does anyone know the composition of the Neronian Pretorian Guard please? Number of infantry versus number of cavalry? I've seen the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_Guard#Size_and_composition but it's a bit confusing.

Thanks in advance.