Game 10

Interesting. I can believe your mining technology is sub-par, but surprised it was that big a difference.

Slavery was endemic to most parts of Africa in the period. I've wondered if you could build up an African nation around that. Either by engaging in the slave trade, but not for profit but to gain people. Alternatively, I think it could be a good justification for war. You get all high and mighty about how selling people is bad, and then conquer people who do it 'for their own good'. Or maybe just people that you think might do it. Or people that you SAY do it, even if they don't...

So nobody else has heard of the fourth partition treaty either? I'm permitted to be really snarky to France in game about said imaginary treaty?

Seems like people want the stabbing, so maybe time to get out of the way of the unavoidable stabbing.

Only seen the third partition treaty not the fourth. Honour seems to be no longer a consideration! A naval battle between France and Spain at Santo Domingo and an English assault on Gibraltar all without a declaration of war; I’m shocked! Lol

The attack on Gibraltar surprised me too. Not even an attempt at an explanation or rationalization of the action.

Everybody's propoganda machines are humming full speed in this month's paper, but not a peep about this.

Come on people, step up!

It's not enough to just invade foreign countries. You have to wittily explain how your invasion is the kindest blessing you can gift the poor invadee, How much you resisted the urge to do so until a full choir of angels came down and begged you on bended whatever-passes-for-an-angel's-knee. Bonus points if you work in something about the river of tears your invading force spilled for the poor benighted invadees struggling under the unimaginably difficult burden of not being you.

We know you can do it. Think of the (imaginary) children.

Tsk Tsk Deacon

Now of course if it were any other nation, yes explanations would be required...but by this action the people of Gibraltar would have the wonderful advantage of being ruled by the wise and gentle government of England so this is not an invasion but more an act of charity. The fact that certain banditry elements tried to stop this most generous act from happening just shows the level of lawlessness that currently exists in Spain

(warning-may contain nuts)

Sorry didn't notice any invasions or battles, too busy being happy withgettin news an hier to the throne of England & Scotland. all the rest isn't really that interesting.

Orders to get ambassador to start selling fire insurance policies in Rome seems not to have been reported, maybe a little bitof encouragement is required to help drum up business.

I miss Rumelia in G2......life was so much easier! You had historic foes and it was the job of the Leyerbey to wage Holy War against them. But just to keep people Deacon and others happy what about the following explanations for violance:

1) I was sailing along minding my own business whem I spotted these nasty pirate types sinking French Merchant ships off Hispaniola (a West Indies Island left to by Dear Friend the Duc of Anjou in the will of his dec'd relation Carlos II of Spain). Being Officier of his most Christain Majesty Louis XIV and a friend of the Duc of Anjou I was honour bound to protect the property of honest law abiding Merchants from the blackguards who were attacking them.

Will be interesting if finding out who these raiders thare working for? Fairly sure you need a letter of Marque from a legitimate Monarch (or a Republic at a pinch) before launching a raid of this nature. Perhaps I should obtain a legal opinion from one of the Scots Lawyers who seem to specialize in Marine Law?............Rear Admiral Jean Bart (somewhere in the West Indies).

2)The King of France wife, The Ladies of the French Court inc by dear friend the Duchess of Artois, My dear sweet niece Marie-Louise de Forbin have all been savagely insulted by that arch cad & bounder the Dog of Venice. The blood of every true born Frenchman boils with outrage. If England can declare war of the UDP due to an insult to the honour of its flag which is only cloth how much more is the honour of the fairer sex of France worth!

Let us brand the head of this jumped up merchant with S for slander and nail it to the the burning hulks of the Venetian Fleet.

Viv La France

Contre-Admiral The Chevalier Claude de Forbin, Comte de Forbin-Gardanne, Grand Admiral of Siam and King Philip de Bourbons Minister of Marine & Colonies (and a mere huckster & Italian calls my Noble French Blood common!)

3) King Carlos II is dec'd......his Will says Flanders should go to the Duc of Anjou, the Pope says the Duc of Anjou has the best claim to Flanders so do Louis XIV and William of Orange, Rival claims to the Title of Flanders have been dropped.......BUT STILL A BAVARIAN ARMY and the Electors Deputy continue to occupy parts of Flanders with absolutely no legal authority and threaten my Garrisons with violence.

As Viceroy of Flanders appointed by King Phillip what should I do to get these invaders off the Fair Fields of Flanders? Since asking them nicely to go back to Bavaria does not seem to work.

Philippe d'Orleans

I have consulted with that renowned firm of Edinburgh maritime lawyers-Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel-and their spokesman (Mr G Marx) has assured me that in this context Mr Jean Barf was quite in his rightsand is in no danger of being hung by the noggin in the Grassmarket as these gentlemen he spent to visit Davy Jones locker are not in the service of any recognised monarch...though Mr Marx did add he's never met any monarchs so is unlikely to recognise one if he saw them

It does seem that Spain is now a sponsor of piracy and should be dealt with appropriately

>>) King Carlos II is dec'd......his Will says Flanders should go to the Duc of Anjou, the Pope says the Duc of Anjou has the best claim to Flanders so do Louis XIV and William of Orange, Rival claims to the Title of Flanders have been dropped.......BUT STILL A BAVARIAN ARMY and the Electors Deputy continue to occupy parts of Flanders with absolutely no legal authority and threaten my Garrisons with violence.<<

Interesting interpretation. The will grants the entire Spanish empire to Anjou, not Flanders specifically, no? And hasn't France publicly repudiated that inheritance? So either the will is valid and Anjou will be the next King of Spain, or it's repudiated and it has no standing, I would think.

Deacon wrote:>>) King Carlos II is dec'd......his Will says Flanders should go to the Duc of Anjou, the Pope says the Duc of Anjou has the best claim to Flanders so do Louis XIV and William of Orange, Rival claims to the Title of Flanders have been dropped.......BUT STILL A BAVARIAN ARMY and the Electors Deputy continue to occupy parts of Flanders with absolutely no legal authority and threaten my Garrisons with violence.<<

Interesting interpretation. The will grants the entire Spanish empire to Anjou, not Flanders specifically, no? And hasn't France publicly repudiated that inheritance? So either the will is valid and Anjou will be the next King of Spain, or it's repudiated and it has no standing, I would think.

The in game will (not the historic will) split the inheritence of Carlos II between the two legitimate heirs and left Spain, Spanish America (apart from Cuba, Hispaniola & Florida) & Spanish Africa to Charles von Hapsburg. The rest of his inheritence inc Flanders to Philip of Anjou.

To date France, England, Scotland, UDP, Savoy and Genoa seem to have accepted the will.

The Spanish council originally originally rejected both the legitimate heirs and the whole idea of a seperation of the inheritence in favour of Rodrigo the Usurper (who was claimed to be a illegitimate son of Carlos II). With France, the Pope and most of the Catholic's in Spain up in arms about the idea of a questionable birth being crowned King of Spain...... Rodrigo abandoned his claim. But very oddly the council and the various Cortez in Spain have still not declared if it now accepted the will of Carlos II or not. Or even if it wants a King, perhaps they are now going to declare a Republic?

To make matters even more confused Charles Hapsburg the named heir to Spain has repudiated the will and the Spanish Crown and has instead demanded the Kingdm of Naples & Duchy of Milan as his share of the inheritence instead.

The Hapsburgs agreeing to Spain going to the Bourbons would normally be great news for the Bourbons but to secure the agreement of the Anglo-Dutch to a "legitimate catholic succession" and a French Duke of Flanders they had already signed a treaty with the Anglo-Dutch-Scots confirming acceptance of the will and Charles Hapsburg as King of Spain.

So basically we have a will accepted by everyone apart from the main beneficiary and the council of Castille who seem unable to make a decision

This doesn't match what I have understood from the papers. The partition treaty split things this way, but not the will. King Carlos said he wanted to keep the empire together. I find no public reference to the will, but I would find it very odd if Richard and the Spanish Player created a will that dismembered the Spanish Empire since the will in 1700 was specifically a response to the partition treaty and rejection of that treaty by King Carlos. Further that treaty was never signed by Austria. All this is pre-game history, so I'm pretty sure Richard wouldn't re-write it.

In fact early 1701, it was Phillipe in Spain demanding to be rightfully crowned. Indeed, it was only last year that Phillipe was proclaiming himself king and passing out the provinces of Spain. He repeated his claim to the throne in the June paper of 1701.

I could be wrong, of course, but unless somebody can point me to my error, I think you've got the partition treaty right, but the will wrong. The partition treaty doesn't have force, in game, unless the players choose to resign it, (pre-game treaties not having full force as I understand it.) So if France chooses the path of the Partition treaty, they don't have the support of the Spanish Grandees who historically wanted to retain the empire, or of Austria that didn't sign the partition treaty. Fancy way of saying that war is likely.

No doubt this isn't helped at all by the then Spanish player's attempt to bury the actual will and put a cuckoo on the throne.

Deacon wrote:
This doesn't match what I have understood from the papers. The partition treaty split things this way, but not the will. King Carlos said he wanted to keep the empire together. I find no public reference to the will, but I would find it very odd if Richard and the Spanish Player created a will that dismembered the Spanish Empire since the will in 1700 was specifically a response to the partition treaty and rejection of that treaty by King Carlos. Further that treaty was never signed by Austria. All this is pre-game history, so I'm pretty sure Richard wouldn't re-write it.

In fact early 1701, it was Phillipe in Spain demanding to be rightfully crowned. Indeed, it was only last year that Phillipe was proclaiming himself king and passing out the provinces of Spain. He repeated his claim to the throne in the June paper of 1701.

I could be wrong, of course, but unless somebody can point me to my error, I think you've got the partition treaty right, but the will wrong. The partition treaty doesn't have force, in game, unless the players choose to resign it, (pre-game treaties not having full force as I understand it.) So if France chooses the path of the Partition treaty, they don't have the support of the Spanish Grandees who historically wanted to retain the empire, or of Austria that didn't sign the partition treaty. Fancy way of saying that war is likely.

No doubt this isn't helped at all by the then Spanish player's attempt to bury the actual will and put a cuckoo on the throne.

The last Will & Testament of Carlos II, King of Spain & the Indies, King of Naples, Duke of Milan & Duke of Flanders was published in the January 1701 Mercurius Politicus and was widely seen at the time as an attempt by the very ill King of Spain to a) Stop his grandee's plan of putting some unknown questionable birth on the Catholic Thrones of Spain & Naples (a Papal Fief) & b) Avoid war by granting both of his legitimate heirs a fair share of his inheritence to both of his legal heirs.

Now it has to be admitted that a case can be made for saying that that the Crown of Spain, The Crown of Naples, Duchy of Milan, Duchy of Flanders are not the personal property of Carlos II and that under Spanish Law the whole inheritance should go to the Duc of Anjou as the senior heir.

Another view which seems to have been the view of the Royal Council of Castile is that the Cortez/Council has the power to ignore the will and change the Spanish Law of inheritence to crown who it see's fit (Bit like the English & Scots ignore so many better claims to make sure a Protestant gets the Crown). Or the Throne is elective like the Polish Crown or the Crown of the Holy Roman Empire but with a very narrow franchise ie the only voters being members of the Council. Its a pity the Royal Council is mute but this seems to still be the position of the Council to this day.

Unfortunately, the death threats issued against anyone who would seek to steal an inheritance from the two most powerful Royal Houses in Europe has resulted in the Council struggling to find someone to take on the Job.

Apart from problems with finding someone with a death wish to take on the position the claim by Madrid that the Crown of Spain and the rest of Carlos II inheritence is in the gift of the Council in Madrid seem to have run into a few problems outside of Madrid:

- The other Cortez in Spain seem to be demanding the same rights as Castille to "elect" their King.
- The Duchy of Flanders is a fief of the French Crown & Louis XIV has made it very clear that proper inheritence Law will apply in French Territory.....or his trusty helpers are going to be visiting every bone in some peoples bodies with a hammer.
- The Kingdom of Naples is a Papal Fief and the Pope & the Council of Naples are united in saying that Madrid can hold as many votes behing closed doors as it wants but no South American questionable birth will break canon law and inherit a Papal Fief.
- The Duchy of Milan is a Imperial Fief and also occupied by the Duc of Anjou by an Army from Savoy. Unless the Council in Madrid "Elect" Philip of Anjou it will clearly take a war for Madrid to put someone else in the Ducal Chair.

Even though the the House of Bourbon had a very good legal claim based on the inheritence law of Spain to contest the will and claim the whole inheritence for Philip de Bourbon under strong pressure mostly from UDP, England & Scotland, it agreed to accept the Will and with it the balance of power (ie no united Bourbon Fleet making a bide for Naval Dominance) and the peace of Europe.

I may be wrong and the King of France may yet pull a diplomatic rabbit out of the hat but from my lowly position in G10 it seems that short of turning down the whole inheritence and allowing the Council of Spain to make a questionable birth Duke of Flanders etc it seems that France is going to be attacked by someone (Great....Letters of Marque:D ):

1) Either UDP, England & Scotland if the Duc of Anjou rejects the will and tries to purse his strong legal claim to the throne of Spain

or

2) The Emperor, Bavaria & Venice if it accepts the will.

Now let me think which of these blocks have argued their case in a firm but diplomatic way? And who called a Royal Bourbon Mistress a Molly and implied that the Grandson of the King of France is a Sodomite?

Ok, I did miss that 'will'. Thanks for the pointer. I went back through the bodies of the newspapers, but missed the end bit. My mind must have gone "Yeah, right..." first time I saw it.

To say I find this 'will' dodgy is an understatement. Even the preamble admits that there is no evidence that it is real. If Spain were trying to 'fake' it, they could put the king's seal on it easily enough. The Cardinal has the seal after all as regent! So I find it hard to believe that it has any honest credibility, and isn't likely from a Spanish source. Of course, honest credibility hasn't ever stopped anyone before around here!

It looks to me like somebody trying to pass off a partition treaty as Carlos's will.

Spain has no history of electing kings, or even a legislative body that could overrule the inheritance like England has. So the Regent burying the authentic will to try to play the rodrigo card I think really borked the position. They could have argued from a greater position of power if they'd used the real will. It existed in 1700, so I'm sure it could have been found in game. Probably a bit late to produce now. Lacking a legal basis/precedent for pulling a King out of the hat, I think Spain is likely to devolve into chaos unless the various Cortez find some common ground and a common claimant they want pretty fast.

I would also say the Kingdom of Naples isn't really a Papal fief. That's a polite fiction, but the Pope would be wise not to test the limits of that, since the basis of the claim is pretty sketchy. Though in the current mess, he might be able to make it real, if it was actually a player position.

In any case, I think war is likely. The Spanish Player of the time (not sure if they're still there) made an interesting gambit with Rodrigo, but the failure of that gambit seems to have given them no good plan B.

France seems to be backing a partition, but is refusing the partition that Austria agrees to. Austria seems to want only Milan and Naples and screw everything else. I think that ends in war, and Italy is likely to be the first battleground.

It will be interesting to see if scraps or bricks rain down upon us smaller positions!

The way I understood it if we go on the historical time line then the starting point is which Hapsburg Princess do you back, The one who was married off into the Bourbon line had in her marriage contract that she would not press any claims to Hapsburg territories nor would any children she had.

The first will of Carlos ( written proir to game start) left everything to a Bavarian child Prince, who unfortutely passed away before Carlos, Carlos drafted then a second will which passed everything to The Austrian line of the House of Hapsburg.

The third will which left everything to Phillip was written on 7 October 1700 ( ie in game time) This was before I became active in game so unsure if this has happened.

The Princess who was Married to LouisXIV was from the first marriage of Phillip IV of Spain ( first wife who was Isabela daughter of Heinrich Iv of France)
From Phillips second marriage with Maria Anna from Austria came the last of the male line of the spanish Hapsburgs Karl II, & a daughter Mararita Therisa who married Kaiser Leopold I , from this marrige came the Archdukes Joseph heir to the HRR, Archduke Karl who was to inherit the Spanish hhapsburg title via the second will of Carlos, the third child was Maria Antonia who was married to the Elector of Bavaria & who was the mother of the Bavarian prince mentioned above.

There is the question of Spanish law also, as it allows the female side of the line to inherit if the male line is ended, in this case the question comes down to the legality of Marriage contract of the wife of Louis XIV, in which it was made clear that claims on the inheretence were dropped.

As to the Partition treaties, They were I beleive an attempt to keep the peace & maintain some sort of balance of power, don't forget this all took place after the Nine years war, people needed peace to recover from the war.

It has certainly been a very interesting, complicated and uncertain situation in Europe lately. First time I have been involved in such political games.

Our forces certainly did not threaten the French dragoons with violence, we just mentioned that it would almost certainly be good for their health to remove themselves from their current position. Any other claim is just French propaganda.

J Flower wrote:
There is the question of Spanish law also, as it allows the female side of the line to inherit if the male line is ended, in this case the question comes down to the legality of Marriage contract of the wife of Louis XIV, in which it was made clear that claims on the inheretence were dropped.

As to the Partition treaties, They were I beleive an attempt to keep the peace & maintain some sort of balance of power, don't forget this all took place after the Nine years war, people needed peace to recover from the war.

The major problem over the marriage contract was that it was subject to Louis XIV 1st Hapsburg wife getting her dowry paid and it was not. Mostly because Spain was bankrupt at the time and then did not want to Bankroll any more of Louis Armies but also because Louis took a fairly broad approach to what was his wife's Dowry and even fought wars over the issue of the unpaid dowry and her inheritance rights in the 1660's & 1670's.

In game terms I would say this the Queen of France was given Spains income from Flanders to keep her in the style of a Princess of Spain & Queen of France. With the Spanish Govt saying this comes as a grant from the Spanish Treasury & was only for the duration of her life while Louis claims is that his wife's heirs inherit their mothers rights and can collect the income directly (basically rule Flanders).

In G7 The Spanish solved the legal problem by finally paying the Dowry to France in cash. Plus a few other concessins in disputed areas like Mons, Hispaniola & French Trade with the Spanish Empire. Allowing the Spanish to throw William of Orange's partition treaty into the bin & Charles von Hapsburg to be crowned King of Spain, King of Naples etc the month after Carlos II passed away with all of the Cortez falling over themselves to honour their old masters will and take the oath of loyalty to Carlos III.

In other games the Spanish solved the problem by Crowning Philip of Anjou as King of Spain which solved the possible problem with the Bourbon Claim to Flanders. Ok it does not solve the Hapsburg Claim to Milan & various solutions have been tried to this one by Spain. Everything from cedeing Milan to the Emperor to "Get stuffed" (This later solution helped by fact the Austria was involved in a life & death struggle with some proper old syle Ottomans).

The problem with G10 is that apart from a quite frankly daft of crowning an unknown (including unknown to Carlos II) questionable birth Spain has done nothing and has left the throne vacant. Which has left the major powers in diplomatic limbo and allowed various minor powers esp in Italy & Flanders to try some creative local solutions.....we now seem to have no less than 4 player characters claiming to be Viceroys for either Philip of Anjou or Charles von Hapsburg inc one who is happy to work for either, two Bourbon & one Hapsburg.

If anyone who is currently running Spain or thinking of running Spain reads my free and unsolicited advice would be Cut off Cardinal Portocarrero's head for High Treason & crown a legitimate King ASAP because the longer this problem is allowed to fester the worse its going to get. Depending on who you pick as the legitimate King of Spain various Viceroys will then have to be praised and rewarded and worked with or crushed like the vile rebels and traitors they are.......oh and you had better start sending some nice letters to the major courts of Europe who are not very happy the the current Spanish Diplomatic Corp.

Ardagor wrote:It has certainly been a very interesting, complicated and uncertain situation in Europe lately. First time I have been involved in such political games.

Our forces certainly did not threaten the French dragoons with violence, we just mentioned that it would almost certainly be good for their health to remove themselves from their current position. Any other claim is just French propaganda.

Clearly friendly Bavarian health warnings about the air quality and the water supply in Ghent got lost in translation from the German.

Perhaps you should get some Scots Law firms to draw up your Public Heath Notices. They are experts in drawing up such notices and local byelaws........no fishing, no littering, no privateering that type of thing.

"The major problem over the marriage contract was that it was subject to Louis XIV 1st Hapsburg wife getting her dowry paid and it was not."

My pre-game history, in the detail lets me down at times but I did not know this. Surely this puts the French claim to the Spanish throne, where there is no in game heir as the most appropriate claim ?

I think historically France did have the best claim. Problem in Game 10 is that France says now they don't want the throne.

I play one of the antagonists in another LGDR world and this has thrown a new light on the Spanish Succession for me

We look at historical diplomacy prior to 1700, when playing the game, but players tend to learn from history and take an alternate path which they hope will deliver better outcomes for their position. And for me this makes for a more interesting game as long as it is not too farfetched from history.

The rough draft and unsealed Last Will & Testament of Carlos II was published in the January 1701 newspaper. A basis for negotiation but not binding in-game.  

And just like Brexit nothing is agreed until everything is agreed

Looks like in Game ten people want to gobble up all the silver mines & suger plantations in the colonies of Spain but don't give a monkeys about the Iberian peninsular, maybe if neither side want the Mainland then letting the Cortez vote somone else onto the throne is an option that can be explored, other European nations certainly did something similar.

Would a possible way for Spain to go be to either let the military run the country or the church, there are a lot of Holy Orders in Spain maybe a knightly Order that has strong connections to the Catholic church is an option. Let the Grand master become head of state. Many of the orders are celebate, so it would mean the next ruler would have to be elected from within the Order rather than inherit the throne automatically, which could make it easier for Richard to introduce new rulers inot Spain at a latter date as needs arise.

Sure a quick search would turn up somethingIn the Knightly Orders section Maybe the knights of St. John? it may allow the Cortez to create a semi democratic government without need of either Vienna or Paris, may even be better if the various Cortez support the idea, maybe a way to give a new player a fresh start

J Flower wrote:Looks like in Game ten people want to gobble up all the silver mines & suger plantations in the colonies of Spain but don't give a monkeys about the Iberian peninsular, maybe if neither side want the Mainland then letting the Cortez vote somone else onto the throne is an option that can be explored, other European nations certainly did something similar.

It is a strange variant of history we're seeing. Neither Austria nor France seem at all interested in the throne itself, and everybody seems to want to just cut up Spain and eat it piecemeal.

It is, at least to me, a relatively rational response to the the in-game reality that if your heir gets the Throne of Spain, they then become the Spanish Player's minion and not yours so you don't get the same historical advantage you would have gotten by putting your guy on the throne.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I will be curious to see if Richard makes either of them suffer a bit for not following the 'honourable' path and attempting to claim the throne for their relative. Because while I do think the position being taken by Austria and France is rational given the game context, I am not sure I'd also agree that it is "honourable".

I do think that a weakened and dismembered Spain could could lead to the greatest amount of global piracy the game has ever seen. They have a vast global colonial presence, and with a devolved central government, a lot of those regions may end up 'freelancing'. I think that's already starting to happen and it may get a lot worse.

In modern parlance, we call them failed states. And they tend to export a lot of problems.

Of course, all of this may turn out to be idle speculation and Spain will come through it all fine, just diminished and maybe with a chip on its shoulder for France or Austria. If I were Spain, I'd be thinking about which of the two I'd try to cut a deal with. Accept their claim in exchange for help denying the other's...

Historically Both France & Austria wanted the Spanish throne basically to make sure the other side didn't get it France was afraid of being encircled by Hapsburg power, & Austria was fearful of an over powerful France & Spain combined crown.

Game ten seems to be a case of no one wanting the millstone of rebuilding Spain hung around their neck.

Spain has the possability in Game to be a major position it has shown itself to be a major player position in most games of LGDR, yes historically it may be pas tit's best but it is a long way away from the state it would eventually reach in 1790s'