Game 10

It would be murder.

I have my doubts about the 'capture' anyway. It seems mightily convenient that King Karl cancelled all appointments in Rome without notice and the same month took it upon himself to disappear; he then rides straight into a small patrol of enemy dragoons, gets captured and later attempts by the very neutral UDP ambassador to check on his health result in said ambassador being kicked out. More likely perhaps that the new player for Spain in his first turn tried to kill off his own character and a kindly GM made it backfire to save him even more problems. After all killing your own character caused months of chaos and civil war in England (G7) when someone was crazy enough to try that. Beginning to wonder if it is the same player?

Papa Clement wrote:It would be murder.

I have my doubts about the 'capture' anyway.  It seems mightily convenient that King Karl cancelled all appointments in Rome without notice and the same month took it upon himself to disappear; he then rides straight into a small patrol of enemy dragoons, gets captured and later attempts by the very neutral UDP ambassador to check on his health result in said ambassador being kicked out.  More likely perhaps that the new player for Spain in his first turn tried to kill off his own character and a kindly GM made it backfire to save him even more problems.  After all killing your own character caused months of chaos and civil war in England (G7) when someone was crazy enough to try that.  Beginning to wonder if it is the same player?

Almost as much civil war and chaos as someone else caused in Scotland (G7) when they murdered King William/Stadtholder of the UDP and Prince Eugine of Savoy the then Austrian Envoy to Scotland.

But if the Spanish Government decided to get ride of a unwanted Monarch by flogging him to the Duke of Savoy, I am sadly disappointed!! Surely for jobs of this nature you put Karl on a really slow and lumbering merchant ship and tip off the Corsairs about its course and when its going to sail.

Since no one seems to have made much effort to get Karl out of the Duke of Savoy's cells wonder if Richard is rolling a dice every month to see if Karl gets goal fever and drops dead since being in a Savoy Goal is probably on a par with being in a besieged city under bombardment and you can die in such circumstances.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Almost as much civil war and chaos as someone else caused in Scotland (G7) when they murdered King William/Stadtholder of the UDP and Prince Eugine of Savoy the then Austrian Envoy to Scotland.

Not quite - Scotland was my territory occupied by rebels, so although you joined in the war on the side of rebels and set up a rebel faction/government to try to make it into a civil war, the execution of William and others was a major step forward in ending the war.

Stuart Bailey wrote:But if the Spanish Government decided to get ride of a unwanted Monarch by flogging him to the Duke of Savoy, I am sadly disappointed!! Surely for jobs of this nature you put Karl on a really slow and lumbering merchant ship and tip off the Corsairs about its course and when its going to sail.

The corsairs would probably have been a better choice, I agree. You would have done the job properly, but having captured him what would you have done with him?

I'm not suggesting that the capture of King Karl was the intention (his death is much more probable), but the hypothesis cannot be dismissed because it does support what has happened since. It would have been very easy for Spain to have tipped off the Savoyard patrol and then ordered King Karl to ride along a certain route.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Since no one seems to have made much effort to get Karl out of the Duke of Savoy's cells wonder if Richard is rolling a dice every month to see if Karl gets goal fever and drops dead since being in a Savoy Goal is probably on a par with being in a besieged city under bombardment and you can die in such circumstances.

I favour the latter suggestion: Savoy is defended by a huge French army and if attacked it is likely King Karl will be killed. After all we know how devious and dishonourable the excommunicated ex-Duke is. Nobody knows whether King Karl is still alive, but if he isn't then someone is responsible for his death. And given the large number of French troops, it may be that suspicion falls on France. At the moment King Karl is probably as safe as he would be anywhere (except perhaps Austria or Rome). Savoy is unlikely to voluntarily release its hostage, so Spain has a King (Karl) who cannot govern. That was the logic behind the Papal compromise outlined in the newspaper and no doubt we will find out next month in the newspaper if that has been accepted.

I'm not playing, so can't comment on giving people slack in game, but I think it's pretty common for smaller positions.

But you honestly can't for the big ones. The decisions that the major powers make create the game context for all players to deal with. If you pick up a big position, you must start from where you are in game. Players may give you some flex, but they may not because they may have committed to a course of action based on what your position has already done.

So while I really do wish Spain well, it is a tough position to navigate through the succession crisis, and previous Spanish players choices may not have turned out well, but they are what they are.

Apologies for interjecting and asking an off-topic question (from the recent discussion at least) but is there a way to know which positions are currently played in G10? I haven't read every single post in this discussion and even if I did, I'm not sure it would be immediately obvious to me who's playing but so far I think I have: France, Spain, Papal States, Austria?, Scotland?

Perhaps it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if Richard fills in for the NPCs anyway but I'm just curious and I'm at a deficit of information having just joined the game (to paraphrase Stuart's point earlier).

Thank you.

Prunesquallor wrote:Is there a way to know which positions are currently played in G10? I haven't read every single post in this discussion and even if I did, I'm not sure it would be immediately obvious to me who's playing but so far I think I have: France, Spain, Papal States, Austria?, Scotland?

Perhaps it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if Richard fills in for the NPCs anyway but I'm just curious and I'm at a deficit of information having just joined the game (to paraphrase Stuart's point earlier).

Welcome, Prunesquallor, hope you enjoy this great game! As far as I know there is no list of active players.

Best way to get an idea is probably to go through a few issues of the newspaper and see if someone has done something, then confirm they are active by writing an introductory letter to a nation and see if they reply. Most players, like me, are decent sorts and will be very glad to reply with their views on the state of the game and help new players find their feet.

G10 does seem to be unusual in that there are a lot of active players in all corners of the world, so you will probably find you have active neighbours.

Those known to be active include:

England, Scotland, UDP ... collectively known as the Maritime Powers

Papal States, Genoa (also in his capacity as temporary Papal Viceroy of Naples), Tuscany

France and the French Corsairs

Spain

Portugal

Austria (Holy Roman Emperor), Sweden, Denmark, Saxony and possibly a few more members of the Holy Roman Empire

Rozwi, Abyssinia and Asante Union ... in Africa

Russia

Japan

China (Kwantung Province, I think).

There may be more, but most of these have at some time been in contact with the Papacy.

Hope that helps.

Thank you, that is very helpful. And it does seem like a very active game, which is great. This will be my first GoK game (I recently started a Scramble position as well) and I picked Malta as it seemed like a good beginner's position. Look forward to enjoying the game with everyone.

No problem - since Malta is run by the Grandmaster of the Knights of Malta, a Catholic religious order, you are especially welcome.

It may be difficult for me to post much more on this given the rules on forum diplomacy, but do please write to me in game.

It looks like your character is a Cardinal on my lists, so in the interests of equality of information the GM will have a few things to clarify to me as well!

Yes, indeed. Given the nature of the position, penning a message from the Grandmaster to the Pope was one of the first things I did as far the upcoming turn And I did see the very clear warning against diplomatic discussion in the forum, which I agree and am happy to comply with. Looking forward to more discussion in-game!

I sent my turn back a few days ago, so a letter from you will be a nice surprise.

Malta is an interesting choice for your first game of LGDR. The only generic advice I will give (which I'm sure others have suggested elsewhere) is not to do anything until you have worked out how that might impact on others. That especially applies in G10 at the moment because there are lots of things going on in the background that are not evident from the newspaper (and which I can't go into on the forum).

As you will have picked up elsewhere, I am England (King James) in G7, so have a certain interest in the Royal Navy which helped me win a decade long war. Perhaps Richard had this in mind when he suggested Malta for you?

The Wikipedia page will give you some useful historical background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta with links to the Order's achievements in the Caribbean, at the sieges of Malta and (Stuart's favourite) the Battle of Lepanto!

The modern Order of Malta is primarily a nursing order, although there are still some Knights. I have met one in real life, his formal choir dress was rather fetching - certainly stands out in the procession and gave him a certain presence! Until very recently Knights had to be born of a noble family that had held a coat of arms for a hundred years, so there really were not that many of them around. The conditions have been slightly relaxed for the lower of the 3 categories, but many members are now honourary rather than fully professed religious.

The original suggestion for Malta actually came from Stuart along with a few other positions that he thought would be manageable for a new player and provide opportunity for some "action" (in the case of Malta, likely against the Ottomans).  It was ultimately between Malta in G10 or Portugal in G9, both of which were listed as "available positions" in the latest listings for GoK.  I was considering Portugal only because I'm partial to it but it seemed like Malta was a better fit overall.  I've done some reading up on the Order beyond the very superficial knowledge I had going in and I do think it's an interesting position to play in general.  I'm sure I'll find it even more so once I'm more aware and involved in the specific happenings of G10.  

As for your advice, I suppose I can hold off on invading those protestant nations for a couple more turns  In all seriousness, I did read enough in the forum to know better than to try and rock the boat right away, which is not something I'd generally do anyway.

Glad to hear it - I'm sure you'll find playing Malta enjoyable.

Welcome to G10 ,

Hope you enjoy your first encounter with the LGDR world, would advise to read the rule book but not be constrained by it there is room for a lot of lateral movement & interpretation of the rules. Basically think up something you want to do & go for it.

Probably a good idea to get contact in game with a few other players & ask for their personal( biased??) views on events so far.

Maybe wait with invading people until turn two at least.

Malta is going to be a pretty tiny, in the game sense, position to start with. Good to cut your teeth on. Maybe try a bigger one later.

I am not playing in game 10, so if you want to send me in-forum messages asking questions about game mechanics and the like, I'd be happy to offer what advice I can.

Thank you J Flower and Deacon. Your offer is much appreciated, Deacon. I'll be sure to take you up on it And, yes, Malta is tiny but seems a good starting point.

Thank you very much, Kerensky.  I submit my first turn yesterday but, in addition to the Pope, the Doge was the only person that the Grandmaster sent a letter to so you should have one from me, assuming it does not get lost on the way

PS: And, yes, it's a strange time we're living through.  Our kids' schools are closed as of today for the next four weeks.  Next few months are going to be rough.

Prunesquallor wrote:Thank you very much, Kerensky.  I submit my first turn yesterday but, in addition to the Pope, the Doge was the only person that the Grandmaster sent a letter to so you should have one from me, assuming it does not get lost on the way

PS: And, yes, it's a strange time we're living through.  Our kids' schools are closed as of today for the next four weeks.  Next few months are going to be rough.

Surely nothing bad could have happened to a ship carrying a letter to the Pope or the turncoat Doge of Genoa

Personally I blame Scots sea monsters myself

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Surely nothing bad could have happened to a ship carrying a letter to the Pope or the turncoat Doge of Genoa

Personally I blame Scots sea monsters myself

Nessie may be on holiday in the Adriatic, but if she can disguise herself as a fleet of French cruisers that have taken to stopping Papal merchant ships then that should really be front page news.

Of course I doubt Scottish lawyers will be able to defend your actions since they deny the existence of Nessie, so attempts to use this defence are likely to result in you being laughed out of court, placed in an asylum or worse.

Papa Clement wrote:

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Surely nothing bad could have happened to a ship carrying a letter to the Pope or the turncoat Doge of Genoa

Personally I blame Scots sea monsters myself

Nessie may be on holiday in the Adriatic, but if she can disguise herself as a fleet of French cruisers that have taken to stopping Papal merchant ships then that should really be front page news.  

Of course I doubt Scottish lawyers will be able to defend your actions since they deny the existence of Nessie, so attempts to use this defence are likely to result in you being laughed out of court, placed in an asylum or worse.

French cruisers in Med & Adriatic looking for the seemingly vanished Genoan Merchant marineing and was wondering if Italians were sailing under false flags or if controband goods (as per Treaty of London) being carried on Papal ships to Sicily etc.

What I found really concerning was total lack of immagination shown by modern Corsairs who seemingly did not make one arrest!!!!!! Think my captains have clearly lost their touch.

As for putting up expensive Scots lawyers to defend cases in court........forget that one.......since the burning and butchery in Eastern France. The bloody flag is being flown for "No quarter asked for or given" and I expect the Heretic Swedes and their allies to show the same mercy to my Corsair Crews as they did to my barge crews.

As far as I'm aware the Papal States is not a signatory to the Treaty of London - doesn't appear on my lists as valid anyway, so can't really comment on a treaty I don't know the terms of.

Perhaps the Corsairs didn't make a single arrest because Papal merchantmen were not doing anything wrong. Internal trade between Italian states is internal trade. I don't remember the French Corsairs (or indeed France) declaring war on the Papal States, even if they are acting as if such a state of war exists. I have sent a letter to you this turn, so refer you to that when it arrives, if it hasn't been eaten by Nessie disguised as a French ship.

I'm not involved in the fighting, but do wonder how many of your Corsair crews are pressed/stolen from other nations. How many hundred Spanish liners have you taken so far? I'm sure Spain will be very pleased that you have such regard for them that you expect them to fight to the death for you and if they do surrender, to be executed for their troubles.

Papa Clement wrote:As far as I'm aware the Papal States is not a signatory to the Treaty of London - doesn't appear on my lists as valid anyway, so can't really comment on a treaty I don't know the terms of.

Perhaps the Corsairs didn't make a single arrest because Papal merchantmen were not doing anything wrong.  Internal trade between Italian states is internal trade.  I don't remember the French Corsairs (or indeed France) declaring war on the Papal States, even if they are acting as if such a state of war exists.  I have sent a letter to you this turn, so refer you to that when it arrives, if it hasn't been eaten by Nessie disguised as a French ship.

I'm not involved in the fighting, but do wonder how many of your Corsair crews are pressed/stolen from other nations.  How many hundred Spanish liners have you taken so far?  I'm sure Spain will be very pleased that you have such regard for them that you expect them to fight to the death for you and if they do surrender, to be executed for their troubles.

For info the Treaty of London is a guide to blockades and third party rights at sea drawn up at the London Naval Conference by Lord Godolphin with input from French Navy - so opinions of landlubbers and Cardinals dont count.

Fairly sure if my Captains did not make any "arrests" or levy any fines it was not due to Papal merchantmen being innocent but because my Captains were not doing their job properly. Its the problem with employing these ex Navy types they sometimes just do not grasp the key point of privateering is not the blockade Austria but making a profit! Think I may have to re-issue the Montbars guides to such key Privateering skills as - How to extract the largest possible ransom from Town Councils.

Since 1700 Current scores on the doors are Corsairs 250 plus (sorry lost count) Others 5 Barges so Privateering has to date been a healthy and profitable profession for all of my crews. And no Spanish Sailors at all were press ganged for King Philip.....they all took the Kings shilling and are noted in muster book as volunteers.

In actual fact fighting to the death or surrender is just not profitable - The Privateering branch work on basis that if we can not outfight something we can out sail it. The really dangerous situation to be avoided if being in the pub or in mid sack when the Cavalry arrive

Since you are upset by the loss of 5 barges, I imagine Spain is very upset by the loss of 250 Spanish Liners crewed by 37,500 recruits.

I have looked back in the newspapers and found this from Nov-1702 referring to a Treaty of London. Not sure if it is the right one or whether it was generally accepted, but the terms are:

i. The territorial waters of any nation shall be considered to extend no more than three miles from the nearest shore.
ii. Letters of Marque may only be granted by a Monarch or Sovereign that possess a naval presence and is legitimately in control of the government and territory that he is acting for.
a. Colonial Officials may issue Letters of Marque if under the direction of their sovereign they are charged to do so. Such Letters issued in this fashion will require concurrence by the Sovereign of the issuing power before such will be accepted by the prize court of any signatory nation.
b. The Admiralty of each signatory nation is required to keep a register of such persons who have been issued Letters of Marque and the specific powers granted the individual.
iii. Blockades are to be legally declared in writing to the belligerent party engaged. Commerce that is attempting to enter a port under blockade will be subject to seizure regardless of the nature of the goods being shipped. All goods are considered to be martial in nature unless the flag officer on station chooses to allow them through.
a. Blockading forces must be present in order for the blockade to be legal and binding.
b. Blockading forces may use any action they deem necessary to interdict trade vessels regardless of the flag they fly if the port is under a legal blockade.
c. Neutral craft in port prior to the arrival of blockading forces must be allowed to leave the blockaded port without molestation.
I. Their cargo can be inspected, and they can be compelled to leave it behind if it is determined to be contraband.
II. Ships will be given 72 hours to set sail and leave under this provision.

So if the Corsairs are claiming protection under this treaty I have to ask:
1. Under clause (ii) Letters of Marque may only be issued by the sovereign, i.e. France, not the corsairs themselves. This would appear to make King Louis responsible for your actions.
2. Under clause (iii) blockades must be declared in writing - no such declaration has been made concerning the Papal States, so by clause iiib you have no right to stop any ships without there being a legal blockade.
3. Under clause (iiic) neutral ships (and Papal ships are neutral), must be allowed to leave the blockaded port unmolested.

Consequently I fail to see the relevance of your assertion that you are acting within the Treaty of London ("French cruisers in Med & Adriatic looking for the seemingly vanished Genoan Merchant marine and was wondering if Italians were sailing under false flags or if contraband goods (as per Treaty of London) being carried on Papal ships to Sicily etc.")

I am also fairly sure that whoever drafted the Treaty of London did not do so with the intention of permitting piracy against neutral ports otherwise there would be nothing to stop the Corsairs blockading Southampton and stopping all English ships after France issued a notice telling England that Southampton was under blockade.

You mention that the Treaty was drawn up with "input from the French Navy", but not that France signed it or whether France or the Corsairs are bound by it. Must admit it looks rather poorly drafted, but perhaps the problem is that it is hard to draft a legal document that sanctions an otherwise illegal act.

Maybe... Just maybe it is time to see if a Papal envoy can swim...

This conversation is starting to feel... diplomatic.

Just a jab at His Holiness... Not much more. I must say that this has indeed been one of the more interesting games as far as dynamic and shift in position. I can only imagine how interesting the current year will end up.