Game 10

Most interesting piece of news I read in the paper, this turn, was this. To quote:

January 1703 newspaper wrote:Cevennes
The region of Cevennes in
the south of France has
erupted in rebellion and
thrown off French royal rule!

Sacré bleu ... Best check that sales in two-wheeled carts haven't risen!

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Kerensky wrote:& I have read & reread His Holiness’s ruling a few times now. Now, I know there will be more than a few in this chain who are not ‘in agreement’ with it, but I have to say, what a brilliantly researched & well thought out legal opinion. The time to research independently, read & consider all submissions & then form a a multi-faceted opinion. As well as respond to all submissions. It would be wrong for me to give any detailed response to the judgement in this forum, but I have to say, what brilliant & dedicated play from the new player.

It certainly makes the game a lot more simple to play............in the words of Claude de Forbin "You just have to love the smell of burning Italian Lawyers in the marning, it smells like victory."

I have sort the advice of that well-known Scottish law firm, Taggart and Rebus, on the Pope's proposals...their response was "well if yer wanna listen to the Scotch mist ramblings of a wee priest, yer had too many Glaswegian kisses of late"

I stand by comments. Whether we like it or not, a great & very involved play from the new player. I say this as someone who did not get anything in the ruling either & I was in for high stakes. Respecting the play does not need to mean agreeing with it.

& of course, everyone is free to comment on it here, but I have been wondering if commentary on here has been impacting honour scores. It is a guess, nothing more, but I would prefer not to take the risk on my own score (hard won & easily lost, is my experience).

Having read the proposal through seems there are a few loose threads remaining, Problem mainly being it is a player generated proposal which could if followed throgh to the letter certainly solve the current impasse. If it had been printed by Agema, we would all shrug our shoulders & play on, maybe moan a bit & feel hard done by in some cases.
That is however not the case, it now revolves around how players react to the Papal proposal. How much respect will the Catholic positions give the Papal proposal, if they refuse it how will it impact upon their posiiton in the game. All concerned asked for the Papacy to get involved now he has, so I guess we should all be careful what we wish for.

The door ahs been left open for swaying Agema to allow the decision to fall , so maybe we are not out of the woods yet.

There is also obviously a typing error in the proposal, as UDP is falsely accused of being a rebel province, some one needs to explain this mistake to the Papal player we will be more than glad to accept his apology when it comes.

[if you've already read the newspaper then there's nothing new in what follows, for the most part - this is just intended to allow non-game 10 players to see what is happening]

The Rozwi Indaba - The Voice of Africa

January 1703

Honour:
1. Doge of Genoa
2. Royal Steward of Poland
3. Holy Roman Emperor
4. Lord President, Scotland
5. Stadtholder, United Provinces
6. Changamire of Rozwi [Honour Score of 19]
7. King of Sweden
8. Grand Duke of Tuscany
9. The Pope
10. Elector of Saxony

Versailles
Having recovered from his new year binge, RearAdmiral Rene Trouin spent
much of the rest of the month lobbying the royal government concerning the
budget of the privateering branch and the Colonial Office. He said, “I am
presenting the French admirals and royal government with plans for
the latest dispart gun barrel aimers, developed by theever-inventive and active
privateering branch.”
[Editor: while not stating it is about Africa, the mention of the Colonial Office does make the Indaba wonder]

Kumasi
The six-week long annual Adae festival has begun in Kumasi. Priests are offering
food and drink in the stoolhouse, in memory of departed rulers who served
before the Asante Union was formed. These departed rulers are being asked by the
priests to show favour to the living of the Asante in these days. There has been much
public praise, including singing, dancing, and feasting amongst the people.

+++

Having just arrived in Kumasi, the Danish envoy Count Endva Olsen stood
before the Asanthene, Otumfuo Nana Osei Tutu Opemsoo, and presented the
emperor with Danish clothing and jewellery. His Excellency then craved a
private audience. He was present when the Asanthene asked by what
arrangement the Dutch have taken ‘3,300 of our people into their service at Accra?’
Those who present admitted they did not know, no formal arrangement had been
agreed to so far as they were aware.

Gondar
Emperor Iyasus Adma-Sion of Abyssinia ordered coal be sold in his country instead of
charcoal ‘as far as production allows.’ His Highness explained, “It is to be sold at costs fair to the
people, similar to that charged for charcoal, and is to be sold by former charcoal makers to not hurt
their income and livelihood. Any excess must be exported to trade regionally.”

Savuti
West of Savuti Marsh, while skirting a thickly wooded area in a region known
locally as Moremi, 600 Rozwi horsemen led by Chief Kamuzu Mutapa were
pounced upon by thousands of Ovambo warriors pouring out from the wooded bush
and standing up in tall dry grass nearby. Taken by surprise, some horsemen were
grabbed from the backs of horses and speared to death. Most had the presence of
mind to veer away and follow their chief into ground away from the woods.
Lagoons hampered their retreat as they traversed the ground but, in the end, most
managed to get away and have started to ride for Maung.
[these units are now at Sick List 7 - they were at SL2 before the ambush]

Khami
The Changamire of Rozwi’s trade minister, Chief Kuduo, has implemented dropping
tariffs levied against Scottish and Portuguese merchants from 10% to 0%.
In another change, Chief Hapunda announced a reduction in taxes paid by
Rozwi nobles, down from 5% to 4%.
[possibly a coincidence, but my EH has just risen back to 6 - it had, previously, dropped to 4 during the 1701 famine, and been at 5 through 1702]

+++

In the female compound of the Royal Kraal, Changamire Dombo II met and formally
welcomed Rumbidzai and Tambudzai, daughters of Chief Hapunda. He also
made welcome and paid his respects to Princess Amanaki of Tonga, apologising for not
being at Khami when she arrived. He also asked, “Are you well? Are your wants
being satisfied?” The princess looked down at the floor and muttered that
she was very well and satisfied and thanked the Changamire for asking.
Dombo then called over Kagumbo Ovambo, who is in the care of the women, a
boy aged eleven. Dombo asked questions, and surmised that he too has
settled in. Unlike Princess Amanaki, the boy smiled brightly and held the
Changamire’s gaze with his own. Brimming with confidence, he said he was
wanting to become a great warrior ‘like you’ and being keen to get away ‘from these
women who fuss too much’. This comment brought him
scowls from Chief Hapunda’s daughters, but Kagumbo didn’t seem to care!

Mozambique
Listening to the interpreted words of the Portuguese governor-general Alfonso Da
Costa, Kumalo Stosha had this to say. “Burundi is far from Rozwi lands. Even if
Rozwi regiments were at Mozambique, it would still take many, many months to
march them to the Burundi border. Such a war would not be quickly won. Great
distances would need to be crossed through dangerous wild lands, rivers and
marshes, risking encounters with wild animals great and small. All travel would be
done as we Rozwi do; not the carts and roads that Mozambique employs, but
foot caravans and protected camps at night. Is Portugal prepared for such a war?”

Kumalo's words were interpreted for Alfonso, and then the black man
continued, “Rozwi currently wars against the Ovambo. We cannot, also, fight the
Burundi with the armies already raised. Rozwi has regiments that could be
fielded, and many more that could be trained, but that takes coins. Rozwi is willing
to fight alongside our Portuguese friends, but to do so Portugal would need to
pay for the raising cost and upkeep of the regiments sent to war against the Burundi
enemy of the Portuguese king. Rozwi will not make profit from a war fought for
our Portuguese friends. Rozwi asks only for the ashrafis coins needed to make ready the regiments,
and the upkeep needed to field them. Is Portugal prepared, and able, to make
these ashrafis available?”

Kumalo Stosha finished, “To better understand and fight together with your
Portuguese musketeers, Rozwi believes it a good thing for men, such as your
Pope suggests to us, who are trained to speak Bantu, also to be involved. This Pope of
your God tells that he leads men capable of bridging differences in speech and
custom, and that they are as brothers to you Portuguese. If this is so, are these men
of your Pope's acceptable to Portugal?”

An Advert:
Wanted!

Trade Factors For
Rozwi Interests.
Swahili Coast, Mocha
and Abyssinia.
Coinage Brokers and
Bankers.

contact Trade
Minister, Chief Kuduo.
Khami, Rozwi

TRADE MISSIONS & OFFICES
BEING OPENED OR SENT

United Provinces;
Dutch trade missions have made a
special effort this month to
promote Dutch goods, in these
localities; London, Edinburgh,
Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Lisbon,
Warsaw, Kassel, Stockholm,
Capetown, Chinsura, Balasore,
Pulicat, Bimlipatam, Quilon,
Curacao, Colombo, Batavia,
Canton.

Portugal; Leipzig, Kongo tribe.

Asante Union; Accra, El Mina,
Ft. Gross Friedrichsburg,
Timbuktu

Places of Notable Interest:
Kumasi; (also called Coomassie).
Population 20,000. Established in 1699
as the capital of the Asante Union by
the Asanthene Osei Tutu, Kumasi is
situated on hills inside a dense forest
and numerous local swamps making
approaching it other than on foot slow
and difficult except via a trade route
(Kumasi straddles a north-south trade
route so can be approached along this
axis via a defile clearing). The climate
is wet and hot. Sites include the
Ashanti Palace.

LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
MERCHANT MARINERS
Losses at sea, by area & nation:

Three Spanish, Ethiopian Sea.

Two Portuguese, Mozambique
Channel


Rozwi is now at war with Ovambo [it is stated as such, in red lettering, on my turn sheet]

"There is always something new out of Africa"

J Flower wrote:
There is also obviously a typing error in the proposal, as UDP is falsely accused of being a rebel province, some one needs to explain this mistake to the Papal player we will be more than glad to accept his apology when it comes.

The Pope does seem to be making a few mistakes like this. I mean his servants want to keep calling James Stuart "King", I know the Pope is a bit behind the times but surely he's had newspapers from 1688 by now?

tkolter wrote:Why not just split Spain into part with multiple kings?

It's an option but i guess it could lead to a civil war/war of reunification as the various parts try to conquer the others. I guess there could be great problems over who gets which bits of the Empire.

Mind you, if a lot of Spain decides being a papal vassal isn't their idea of a bright future...but then can't agree on who should lead them against the old man in Rome, then we might see such a rise of regionalism.

Kerensky wrote:
& of course, everyone is free to comment on it here, but I have been wondering if commentary on here has been impacting honour scores. It is a guess, nothing more, but I would prefer not to take the risk on my own score (hard won & easily lost, is my experience).

Sorry but are you suggesting that at the end of a long day, Richard sits down with a well-earned mug of hot chocolate (other beverages are available) and looks at our posts on the forum and goes "Hmmm, that comment by Jason, well he's losing an honour point"?

Sorry but that is rather comical (if a little insulting to Richard). Richard has always made clear honour is about how you act in game. The idea that he would score us down because of forum comments goes against everything that Richard has created in the game and is against his character. The only time he has even suggested that a non-game action might affect honour is by saying if you repeatedly moan about a low honour score, you might find your honour suffers.

But hold on...my honour in game is doing pretty well...I had assumed it was down to my brilliant game play but maybe it is my comments here...maybe Richard goes "that's another brilliant, amazing and insightful comment by Jason" and up goes my honour score again...in which case I'll just carry on as normal...

tkolter wrote:I say go to war, let the strongest prevail.

And this coming month equipment enhancements including cuirasses for everyone in the army and household guard, and lots of drilling going on I figure with neighbors having bows, spears and swords that armor will offer significant protection and I'll have 60 military units plus so yes, once all get one level of drill in they should pose a significant threat to invaders. More will be added to the militia as they get trained, drilling to one level then stood down. Purely to protect the Empire of course. I don't mind if people know, its not a deterrent plan in the long term military posture if no one knows about it.

Just out of (personal) interest, when you say everyone in the army has cuirasses, do you just mean mounted units or infantry too?

Well not medical corps and some others but yes every fighting man will be wearing that, with metal shields in most cases and adding in training all at least to Drilling to Level 1 will make my army tough to harm. Remember the cost is known its listed in the rulebook for equipping 150 men so multiplying that by five would cover an infantry battalion.

I never said its overly cheap but not so costly as to be a deal breaker if it was too expensive it would not be done. Adding in uniforms and flags they should be damned pretty to look at and add a level of respect to the armed forces in they eyes of the people and outsiders.

My Emperor's forces the Emperor is paying for his own personal force to be outfitted and weapons modified before they start training, part of the armed force.

I'm going to begin research on the first weapon tech for the nation as well once I choose one, I have a couple ideas.

I find the Pope's findings mostly well thought out, and am delighted we have such player playing the Papacy.

That said, as a player, I don't think this ruling is by any means definitive for any number of reasons. The Pope overreaches a fair bit to assert the ability to make decisions that aren't his to make.

1) Most of these matters revolve around secular rather than church law over which the Pope has no authority, but does have spiritual influence. There is an important difference between these two. For instance, He speaks of the marriage contract and the marriage as if they are one in the same. They aren't in my view. One is a secular contract of exchange, one is a sacrament of the church. That the marriage is valid doesn't mean that the marriage contract is upheld. You can't request an annulment because your marriage contract wasn't honoured. You use secular force/law to enforce secular contracts.

2) I have to admire the Pope's land grab. I think it is hugely hard to expand your position as the Pope. That said, the Papal claims to those 'papal fiefs' are based on what I believe even in period were known to be forged documents claiming they were part of the donation of Pepin. Those forgeries weren't called out because the Pope didn't push the matter and accepted Spanish control if everybody nodded and pretended. Nobody wanted to embarrass the Pope and pick a fight over nothing. With the Pope claiming those lands now, this polite fiction may well get fully tested and the forged nature of those claims revealed.

3) The pope may counsel, but doesn't have the authority to direct, what secular authorities might do with their power. Specifically, the pope says who various people may and may not pick as their rulers. He tells the Spanish royal counsel they may not pick Portugal and should pick one of their own, but he doesn't have that authority. Absent a king, The spanish royal council is about as close to an authority as there is. If it were immediately obvious who had the authority to name the next king, this wouldn't be a crisis, would it? Similarly, the pope can't bind a ruler to not make deals for territory or pursue the recovery of lands lost. He can speak against it, but that is all. Nor can he tell them that he's claiming the whole thing as a Papal protectorate if they don't do things his way.

4) "This ruling is binding upon all who asked for my judgment or made submissions." No, it isn't. First, nobody actually asked for his judgment in the traditional AGEMA sense of agreeing to such terms. The peace conference jointly hosted by Poland and the Papacy in Rome specifically disclaimed that participants would be bound in any way. Certainly people hoped the Pope would help parties reach a resolution, but the Pope cannot impose one.

It will be interesting to see how the key players take this. My guess is many will be slowed, but not stopped by this ruling. I think the Pope in seeking some territory of his own in this has undercut his own spiritual authority on this matter too(not that I particularly blame him for it!).

Ruling a united Portugal/Spain is not as crazy as the Pope makes it sound, particularly if Spain loses both Naples and Flanders. Those losses are greater than the gain of Portugal. Colonies are nice, but they have hardly any population. They're basically bonuses on trade investments in my view. France is still far larger in population than the combined Spain and Portugal even if the entire Spanish empire remained intact. I say this as someone who rules most of that in game 8. There is a reason that France is the big dog in game. But that is also why France needs to be cautious because big dog or no, she can be taken down by a pack of smaller dogs...

And a side point on honour, and Richard may well choose to comment himself.

You are not to engage in diplomacy on the boards or in messages. If you do, Richard may ding you or warn you. Other than that, it is all fair game.

But in the years that I've played, I haven't seen it happen. We players tend to self-police reasonably well.

I can't imagine, and have seen ZERO evidence, that anything you say here has any impact upon honour in-game. I am sure that Richard has better uses of his time than doing honour scores for forum postings! What you do in game drives your honour. Nothing more, nothing less.

What in game actually drives honour is another question, and a mystery still to a lot of us! :D

Deacon wrote:I find the Pope's findings mostly well thought out, and am delighted we have such player playing the Papacy.

2) I have to admire the Pope's land grab. I think it is hugely hard to expand your position as the Pope. That said, the Papal claims to those 'papal fiefs' are based on what I believe even in period were known to be forged documents claiming they were part of the donation of Pepin. Those forgeries weren't called out because the Pope didn't push the matter and accepted Spanish control if everybody nodded and pretended. Nobody wanted to embarrass the Pope and pick a fight over nothing. With the Pope claiming those lands now, this polite fiction may well get fully tested and the forged nature of those claims revealed.

...

4) "This ruling is binding upon all who asked for my judgment or made submissions." No, it isn't. First, nobody actually asked for his judgment in the traditional AGEMA sense of agreeing to such terms. The peace conference jointly hosted by Poland and the Papacy in Rome specifically disclaimed that participants would be bound in any way. Certainly people hoped the Pope would help parties reach a resolution, but the Pope cannot impose one.

You see, 2 is where I have issues. The idea that a peacemaker becomes the major beneficiary of the peace agreement seems to go against the spirit of the game and Deacon, don't you regret not making that your move rather than hosting peace talks? You could be King of Spain and Poland by now Well I have a bottle of whisky and a loooooonnnngggg time to write up the views of the Lord President of Scotland on this one.

Completely with you on 4 and as I've said before, Deacon you're the one who put the effort into the talks. The Pope cannot simply impose a peace agreement, well he can try but when everyone goes "hold on a minute", he can't complain about objections. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the entire French pirate fleet is putting to sea as we speak...ok, admittedly they will struggle to find the rowing boat that is the Papal Navy...

My 'small turns' in game 8 are still enormous. I enjoy it, but I did not want another massive position. So no, I don't regret not trying to claim the throne of Spain.

Power and authority is usually about what you can get away with. The Pope's made a bold reach, but I think his ambition here outstrips the length of his arm...

I will enjoy watching the fallout of all this as I deal with my own issues....

I'll just sit here, drink whisky and watch what happens anyone got the popcorn?

Jason wrote:
& of course, everyone is free to comment on it here, but I have been wondering if commentary on here has been impacting honour scores. It is a guess, nothing more, but I would prefer not to take the risk on my own score (hard won & easily lost, is my experience).

Sorry but are you suggesting that at the end of a long day, Richard sits down with a well-earned mug of hot chocolate (other beverages are available) and looks at our posts on the forum and goes "Hmmm, that comment by Jason, well he's losing an honour point"?

Sorry but that is rather comical (if a little insulting to Richard). Richard has always made clear honour is about how you act in game. The idea that he would score us down because of forum comments goes against everything that Richard has created in the game and is against his character. The only time he has even suggested that a non-game action might affect honour is by saying if you repeatedly moan about a low honour score, you might find your honour suffers.

But hold on...my honour in game is doing pretty well...I had assumed it was down to my brilliant game play but maybe it is my comments here...maybe Richard goes "that's another brilliant, amazing and insightful comment by Jason" and up goes my honour score again...in which case I'll just carry on as normal...

Hi Jason, I would put down my comment to my own paranoia, rather than being aimed @ you my friend. It’s a general concern, as I last played this when it was all pen & papers. Maybe I am just over analysing, but I know there has been concerns on shifts in honour scores that are not felt to be explicable in game, so I thought this may be the cause. I am going way back (again pen & papers) & I remember a few people getting dinged for managing items outside of the game. As ever, could be wrong, but I prefer not to risk it. No Worries, James

Sent from Topic'it App

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that Richard tends to cut newer players some slack.

If only I could convince Richard I am a still new player....

Thanks Deacon, that’s great to know!

I think my working life has changed my approach to online communications (marked me?!). For the last five years, I have been specialising in financial crime investigations, primarily internal fraud. Casually sharing a few off hand data points in the market becomes front running or insider training, in the cold light of day. Of course, Richard is not running data analytics & spiders through the forum, but I am now naturally (trained?) very careful on writing specifics in electronic fora, in any and all areas of my life.

Penalties are severe in Singapore, with mentioning a client name in public (e.g. in a bar or online) an indictable offence, leading to loss of career & jail time. The loss of a few honour points would be a walk in the park... =)

& thankfully now, on holiday! Now, for a big cup of tea & some thought on how will the Doge play this one...

I used to have a job at a company where I had regular access to insider info here in the US. I worked on the quarterly earnings report.

I got it drilled into my head pretty quick how bad it was and how good the regulators were at finding out if you screwed up...

Fair Play Deacon. I have a very healthy respect for several of the US Regulators. Some very impressive forensic audit departments...

On the Papal ruling, I think I can see method in there, but it is a real bold set of moves, that is for sure. It is not enforceable, in the absolute sense, but for Catholic Powers (including Genoa), to invite him to make an legal ruling & then go against it will likely have soft power consequences (honour). It is another pressure point on the actors, maybe less on the Gallicans, but pressure none the less.

I believe war has been inevitable for some time, & the Papal ruling will not stop it. It will, however, impact how the conflict unfolds in subtle & potentially decisive ways.

& it remains for me to wish you the best in the ‘very Polish coup’! I am thoroughly enjoying the move & countermove here.

Not sure how enforcable the Papal settlement is,on first glance it is an impressive piece of writting, afterall when Papacy was inactive ( Agema run) players were more than happy to have an Agema brokered peace deal with all the trimmings put upon them, all those with a vested interest had made appeals to Rome( Agema) Now a Player has taken up the mantel, it all seems to be unravelling, is it because we as players will not/ cannot allow another player to dictate to us? On this thread & elsewhere, there have been many opinions hoping for an active Spain, now that is almost a reality & still we are not a happy bunch of campers, having a new player is beneficial for the game in general & having a Major position like Spain ( Potentially) active can only add new dimensions to the game, yes some of us may loose out, but that is how the game goes

There is still a degree of wriggle room for Agema, it isn't an automatic given that the Papal player gets the Spanish position as a Papal fiefdom, it all revolves around how the Royal council of Spain( Agema NPC) reacts, the last turn showed they had as yet not taken in the content of the settlement, as I suspect player actions were played out first. So it isn't cut & dried as to what the end result will be. Admitted there is a good chance it could become Papal, but that is for Agema to decide. Also in the future should a new, new player express an interest in Spain the possability is there that the council ( via Agema) can introduce a new player.

The Judgement, looks like a labour of love, well researched & thought through, so should it simply be ignored at first reading, feel it goes much deeper into legal & relegious matters than most of us ever go into in our game play( personal opinion, no insults to anyone intended). It will be interesting to see what kind of power Agema bestows upon it. Players asked for & have been given a solution, now it is upto us to take the ball & run with it. Will Catholic nations who simply ignore or it all then face certain penalties from Agema(honour scores) ? Only Agema can answer that , but will those players run the risk of finding out? Only individual players can answer that.

Play for Spain isn't over yet, but it may be heading for the final whistle, question is how much injury time do we have?

My handicapping, such as it is, is that there is almost no chance of Spain becoming a Papal holding for any period of time.

I'd also disagree that anybody wanted a AGEMA brokered peace deal. None of the principles ever expressed a desire to me to have a binding peace conference.

I am very happy, as a player, to have an active Papacy. I think it adds a great deal to the game. It is a very tough position to play well though. Lots of influence, but almost no power.

My read/advice is simply that nations who wish to disagree with the Pope, need to go "Yes, but." Make some show of bowing to the Pope and then ignoring him if they want to avoid too much honour pressure.

Deacon wrote:
My handicapping, such as it is, is that there is almost no chance of Spain becoming a Papal holding for any period of time.

I'd also disagree that anybody wanted a AGEMA brokered peace deal. None of the principles ever expressed a desire to me to have a binding peace conference.

I am very happy, as a player, to have an active Papacy. I think it adds a great deal to the game. It is a very tough position to play well though. Lots of influence, but almost no power.

My read/advice is simply that nations who wish to disagree with the Pope, need to go "Yes, but." Make some show of bowing to the Pope and then ignoring him if they want to avoid too much honour pressure.

I only play a very small position in G10 and my influence at the French Court is basically a cross between a trade company and the French Court Jester but I have now read and enjoyed the Papal ruling & agree with Deacon that it needs to be honoured.

- Since the Royal House of Bourbon asked for a ruling on the Kingdom of Naples which it has always accepted as a Papal Fief, then it is honour bound to accept the ruling on Naples. Bad luck on Philip of Anjou, that the Pope did not back his claim..........I just hope his claim was was not hurt by who his current Mistress is.

- Papal lawyers also raised the 1660 Marriage Treaty and the rights of Maria Theresa of Spain and her Children by Louis XIX of France. People may care to note that:

a) Under this treaty Maria Theresa dropped her claim to the Spanish Throne in return for a very large dowry which was surposed to be secured against lands & income mostly in Flanders but sadly the Queen of France dowry was NEVER PAID.

- Since the Dowry dates from 1660 I do not know what interest rate Papal Lawyers are using but based on £500,000 in 1660 and 20% compound interest (common loan rate) I got to £39,748,423 by 1685!

b) Louis XIV and his Children have never claimed that his marriage to Maria Theresa was not valid! Rather they have with the full backing of French Courts spent many decades trying to secure their wife & mothers dowry lands and finally adopted the position that as the Dowry was not paid their Mothers surrender of her claim to the throne of Spain in exchange for this dowry was no longer valid.

- Note in 1660 Maria Theresa surrendered her claim to the Crown of Spain in exchange for the Dowry. Nothing about the Duchy of Milan, Duchy of Flanders or if Spain is no more her claim to Aragon and Castile etc

c) In 1660 Maria Theresa surrendered her claim to the Crown of Spain for a promised large dowry........Louis XIV did not surrender his and his childrens claim to the Crown of Spain via his mother who incidently was Maria Theresa Aunt. So even if the Papal Lawyers are correct the House of Bourbon still has a better claim than some random Spanish Noble or King of Portugal.

d) Ref the King of Portugal..........Portugal revolted against Spain in 1640. Maria Theresa was born in 1638 as the Infanta of both Spain and Portugal. Did she surrender her claim to the Crown of Portugal in 1660?????? I think not.

In summary while France should respect the Pope esp over Naples since it did ask. Family honour and the deep love and respect which the Bourbon Family have for their dec'd Queen and mother mean that the Dowry is now a 43 year old debt of honour and needs to be paid in some form or other..........you know gold, silver, lands or if these are not on offer someone head nailed to burning palace gates.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that the Papal ruling needs to be honoured. I don't actually think that. I think that Catholic players will need to step a bit carefully, but there is a very long tradition of Monarchs nodding politely to the Pope while saying "oh hell no" under their breath. I think players who are careful to not trash the Pope can walk around most of the ruling.

The point you're making about the marriage contract is one I agree with. Contract law is very straight forward. You give something and you get something. It can't be one way. France didn't get, so it doesn't have to give. I don't agree that the marriage contract is a religious matter. It isn't in my view.

The Papal claim to Naples was based on a forgery, and there was a lot of nodding and pretending on this score, but let's be real. Spain 'pays' the Papacy a pittance to let them keep the fig leaf that it is theirs. If the Papacy had a real and defensible claim on the territory, they wouldn't do that. While I could well be wrong, I think I've read that it was known in period that the Papal Claim was specious, so the Pope didn't push, and the Spanish let the Pope keep up that fiction. That now will be likely tested.

I think people want to make this all about legal arguments, and they do have their place, but at the end of the day the one who wins the hearts and minds of the Spanish Nobles will win the throne. France and Austria both have great claims which does put them up in the game. But since they've both pissed repeatedly on the idea of taking the crown, that puts them a fair bit down in the game.

I will be curious how the Spanish Royal council moves here. They don't actually have any obligation to listen to the Pope, but he IS the pope.

I don't think the race is near done, but I do think Portugal is gaining ground even despite this ruling, because he seems to be really working it.

Fun times!

Jason, pass the popcorn!

I agree, this will be a thoroughly enjoyable few turns. Smoke is clearing, but still many paths to play out. Papal Ruling, another incident of ‘Civil Disorder’ in France, Spanish Fleet arrives in Sardinia. G10’s game of cards on the Spanish Succession moves into the denouement. A new player has joined at the table, how will this shift the outcome? We shall see. We can all predict & we can all hope, but one thing I have learnt is, nothing will go completely according to plan...