Game 10

Kerensky wrote:Stuart’s suggestion on sequential trade relationships via India makes a lot of sense for trade from East Africa. Your best bet is the Gujarati Muslim Trading Houses. There were strong links between Gujarati Traders and the early to mid Sultanates of South East Asia. Their impact was far more than trade, as they are viewed as one of the main conduits for the spread of Islam throughout the Malay Archipelago. As their trade created the foundations of the largest Muslim country in the world (Indonesia), I am sure they could help shift a few Rozwi products in an Easterly direction.

I have plans underway to test an idea for peaceful trade.

As far as I'm aware, historically, the Swahili Coast trade from the geographic areas of the Middle East, Persia and West India terminated with the furthest point south, on the eastern African coast, at the Kingdom of Kilwa (in modern day Tanzania). Due to the winds and currents to make the journey back north.

It wasn't until European exploration (Portuguese) along the coast south of Kilwa that further trade opened, and European colony markets were created. Portuguese East Africa, obviously, had Inhambane as a settlement and coastal trade market (this, in game, is a Rozwi possession). I don't know if there was further, southern Portuguese outposts along the coast south of modern day Mozambique - Vasco de Gama named the land, now part of the RSA, as Natal (well, Natividad, etc., due to the time period of discovery, if memory serves me correct), but Portugal didn't settle south of Maputo, as far as I'm aware (Maputo would be in Rozwi lands, in game, but isn't shown on any maps, nor mentioned as a Rozwi asset). Could be wrong.

By 1700, I'm not certain what amount of coastal trade to these Portuguese markets was non-European. Not that it really matters, I suppose, as this is a game and not historically set in stone. In our game world Africa's east coast trade will be open to all nations that can sail south along the continent's coast, no doubt. So Persian and Indian middlemen traders will be available to open a 'silk road' link for the Far East's rice trade.

I keep falling into the trap of thinking that my Rozwi is a tribal group of cattle farming plainsmen in Zimbabwe. Where as, with the fact we've coastal possessions and Inhambane, Rozwi's technology and abilities will be more akin to such as the (historic) coastal Kingdom of Kilwa than I think.

Thanks for the information and help, Stuart and Kerensky

(Kilwa was actually the Kilwa Sultanate, and Muslim)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilwa_Sultanate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilwa_Kisiwani

Gentlemen of Africa, I look forward to seeing your personal research & experimentation in trade routes pay off in game!
A great piece of research their Rozwi, I had never come across the Sultanate of Kilwa before, it made an interesting read & has me digging more on my side.
I have the feeling (based on SE Asian knowledge & experience rather than African), that Portuguese (& other early European Traders) actually disrupted & damaged a lot of pre-existing trade patterns. The ‘relay trade’ (of which Stuart’s Mombasa porcelain was likely an exhibit) was a core part of the Asia/ Middle Eastern/ African economic dynamic, prior to European intervention. You will be building on a strong & proud tradition of African commerce!

Kerensky wrote:Gentlemen of Africa, I look forward to seeing your personal research & experimentation in trade routes pay off in game!
A great piece of research their Rozwi, I had never come across the Sultanate of Kilwa before, it made an interesting read & has me digging more on my side.
I have the feeling (based on SE Asian knowledge & experience rather than African), that Portuguese (& other early European Traders) actually disrupted & damaged a lot of pre-existing trade patterns. The ‘relay trade’ (of which Stuart’s Mombasa porcelain was likely an exhibit) was a core part of the Asia/ Middle Eastern/ African economic dynamic, prior to European intervention. You will be building on a strong & proud tradition of African commerce!

Oddly, the real disruption to local trade patterns seems to have been before and after our period.

Earlier when the Portuguese sacked port after port in East Africa and India and established what amounted to one of the largest "protection rackets" the world has ever seen. While the Dutch did much the same further east.

Later when the Industrial revolution in Europe introduced machine manufactured European textiles and the like which destroyed the handloom Indian textile Industry and many other traditional industries.

During our period apart from Dutch control of the East Indies European involvement in the Indian Ocean/China was mostly via trade which just gave the local merchants and their products wider access to export markets in Europe, The America's and West Africa. Even the Piracy of men like Avery is a very pale shadow of local Chinese and Indian pirate fleets and probably disrupted European as much as local trade. Avery's great Prize's the Fateh Mohamed and the Ganj-i-Sawai may have been owned by the richest merchant in Surat and the Great Moghul respectively but much of the loss ended up being paid for by the HEIC and the pirate round was mostly ended in the 1720's by European Navies concerned about damage to trade and reputation.

Indeed the durability of these Sino-Indian merchants and their trade routes is truely remarkable. In the Mombasa Museum they have examples of Yueh, Lung-ch'uan, K'ang Hsi celadon, Yuan, Ming and Ch'ing poccelain while if you eat in Mombasa today you still eat of the latest China exported porcelain supplied by that nice Mr Patel who probably got it from his brother warehouse in Bombay.

It may have had to dodge Mongols, Pirates, Portugese, Dutch convert to Islam or take up cricket but some how the trade got through.

I've been reading up on Ptolemaic Egypt, Egypt between the conquest by Alexander and Queen Cleopatra, Marc Anthony and all that nonsense. It appears that there was a thriving trade in captured elephants from Eritrea that were brought up the Red Sea and transported across land from the port of Berenika which had forts and watering points for the cross desert trade from that point. In the Roman period there was a huge amount of trade that went down the Red Sea and to India, and from Justinian's time there was a lot of interest in Christian kingdoms to the south of Egypt which included an alliance with Axum for a military invasion of the Yemen to destroy a Jewish Arab kingdom there. A huge amount of trade from southern Arabia went up the Red Sea in perfumes which only really disappeared with the spread of Christianity which reduced its demand. With the Arab conquests there had been a huge amount of trade going down the east African coast. So there are plenty of old trade routes to link into.

Basileus wrote:I've been reading up on Ptolemaic Egypt, Egypt between the conquest by Alexander and Queen Cleopatra, Marc Anthony and all that nonsense. It appears that there was a thriving trade in captured elephants from Eritrea that were brought up the Red Sea and transported across land from the port of Berenika which had forts and watering points for the cross desert trade from that point. In the Roman period there was a huge amount of trade that went down the Red Sea and to India, and from Justinian's time there was a lot of interest in Christian kingdoms to the south of Egypt which included an alliance with Axum for a military invasion of the Yemen to destroy a Jewish Arab kingdom there. A huge amount of trade from southern Arabia went up the Red Sea in perfumes which only really disappeared with the spread of Christianity which reduced its demand. With the Arab conquests there had been a huge amount of trade going down the east African coast. So there are plenty of old trade routes to link into.

Seems like someone is getting ready for the Ancients Game.....................Senate & People of Rome do we trust this man with Rome's grain supply?

[quote="Jason"]

I suppose the papal states don't have enough of a navy or merchant marine for you to raid [/quote


I suspect raiding the Papal States can get a honest law abideing Catholic Privateer in all sorts of trouble unless he converts to Islam and sails out of North Africa or becomes one of those naughty Protestants.

Actually with the HRE pulling troops out of Liege-Cologne for his wars in Italy and those naughty Protestants threatening Avignon and acting all scary with eye patches and hooks instead of hands in Rome etc I was wondering if I could start offering "Protection" to all of rich Bishops in Avignon, Munster, Liege-Cologne and along the Rhine in exchange for a "contribution" to the old coffers.

Is ther another layer of confusion ot come in Spain?

Philip claims to be king of Spain.
Savoy is claiming parts of Italy for & claiming king Louis is king of Spain
Karl is waiting to see if no one else wants to be king of Spain
Pedro is hoping no one else wants to be king of Spain
Pope offering a Theoracy if any of the above named isn't good enough.


Dutch ambassadors also double up as insurance salesmen as part of their job, just happens to be that Catholic church lands have a higher fire risk, this may have something to do with all the bonfires that are used to burn the heretics.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Jason wrote:

I suppose the papal states don't have enough of a navy or merchant marine for you to raid [/quote


I suspect raiding the Papal States can get a honest law abideing Catholic Privateer in all sorts of trouble unless he converts to Islam and sails out of North Africa or becomes one of those naughty Protestants.

Actually with the HRE pulling troops out of Liege-Cologne for his wars in Italy and those naughty Protestants threatening Avignon and acting all scary with eye patches and hooks instead of hands in Rome etc I was wondering if I could start offering "Protection" to all of rich Bishops in Avignon, Munster, Liege-Cologne and along the Rhine in exchange for a "contribution" to the old coffers.

Abyssinia might hire such a man.

Stuart as a Protestant... Hmmm! He makes a fine John Company man.

I ordered many of the other treatises on ruling a realm to study.

And the Atlas of the known world I needed that one.

revvaughan wrote:Stuart as a Protestant...  Hmmm!  He makes a fine John Company man.  

I have played characters who are Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Orthodox, My D & D Character in forgotten realms followed Lavander & I have also played a follower of the the Seven Mothers cult in Runequest!

Generally speaking no problems with Orthodoxy or Protestsntism and my D & D Character became a "Chosen of Lavander". But I could have done without the gift of enlightenment and growing a pair of horns in Runequest and getting excomunicated and cursed with bell, book and candle and having a Catholic Crusade called against me in more than one game.

However as a Sunni Muslim, Shia Muslim, Catholic & Orthodox I do have a 100% record of being picked on by Grand Mufti's so perhaps I should try the Red Sea in G10...........to keep up the record.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Actually with the HRE pulling troops out of Liege-Cologne for his wars in Italy and those naughty Protestants threatening Avignon and acting all scary with eye patches and hooks instead of hands in Rome etc I was wondering if I could start offering "Protection" to all of rich Bishops in Avignon, Munster, Liege-Cologne and along the Rhine in exchange for a "contribution" to the old coffers.

[/quote]

You could have a chat with Munster, they might welcome your ships offering to escort their merchants to stop Danish searches...of course, this might end up with the unusual situation of you co-operating with the Royal Scots Navy if it decides to send a squadron to keep an eye on Scottish shipping and prevent Danish searches...

Ref the Papacy in G10 dusting off old claims to Naples, Sardinia and Sicily I was wondering how many other old Papal claims could be dusted off:

- The Holy Roman Empire.........since the Pope crowns the Emperor does he have to follow the recommendations of the Electors? Or can he just crown anyone he wants?

- England............King John surrendered England to the Pope and got it back as a Papal fief.

- Ireland............Henry II was on a Papal Mission when he crowned himself High King of Ireland. Does this mean that the Pope needs to confirm the High King of Ireland like he does with an Holy Roman Emperor?

- Prussia..........When the last Grandmaster turned the Church Lands of the Teutonic Order into Ducal Prussia and made himself a Duke did he actually have authority to disband a Church Order and make its lands family property?

- Lands taken as part of a Crusade........ie Baltic States, Kingdom of Jeruselem, Latin Empire, South of France, Southern Spain.

Also we have the famous treaty by which the Pope divided non Christian World between Spain & Portugal since both of these Empires were taken on the basis of Papal Authority how does this impact them?

Can anyone add any more Papal Legal cases??

Stuart

Way things are going, the only Papal case we are likely to see is the one of Pope V the Red Hot Poker

(warning-this post may contain nuts)

Next turn reply nearly written ... Not much else but, battlefield stratagems and battle plans. Army on High Alert.

Here's hoping my plan to emulate the Basotho and Xhosa and Zulu methods work

My turn in sending out letters.

God a bunch of game source books and am studying their mysteries and using the Atlas for upcoming plans.

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:Next turn reply nearly written ... Not much else but, battlefield stratagems and battle plans. Army on High Alert.

Here's hoping my plan to emulate the Basotho and Xhosa and Zulu methods work

A word to the wise, if Michael Caine turns up...retreat

tkolter wrote:My turn in sending out letters.

God a bunch of game source books and am studying their mysteries and using the Atlas for upcoming plans.

Enjoy, they really do add to the fun of the game

I just hope my trade plans work I am also planning on opening a couple more schools after April with other improvements including Roads and a Goal with a Workhouse.

But will the ending of slavery and declaring military neutrality in Africa.

Right now its more get more stable income by the end of 1704. Well have to plan longer term in this game one can't rush.

Morning,

Relatively new to GoK and my first post in the forum!

I have been paying a few months now in a game but feel I'm struggling to have any impact, not on the game entirely but merely my nation. I understand it's a slow paced game and I'm not expecting somre radical turn around. I feel it's probably down to my lack of experience, and likely imagination. I'm just connecting dots I'm given.

I really really want to get into the game as it is right up my street in every aspect, must admit I'm struggling to continue at this point though due to lack of movement.

Is there any chance someone would be kind enough to show me their orders/ papers they have sent so I can get a sense of how to set things out efficiently, what is possible and what sort of things I can expect back!? I think it would really give me a leg up on how to get my thoughts and ambitions down into actually game mechanics!!

I obviously don't want anyone's up to date orders/ papers and even ideally from a different game from myself. I just think having the insight of an experienced player would really get me engaged in it. Like I say I've found myself struggling to complete orders due to zero motivation.

Well what country are you playing if one of the medium positions I'm new but worked on the basics and decided to work on Agriculture and a Trade Network for now an essentials like fortified cities with sewers, medical facilities and one school of medicine,  some defense and role-playing ending slavery in the Empire a bold move but well the moral move and see how it takes. I do plan more economic investments and promotion of moving goods through Abyssinia adding a town just for 'entertainment' with gambling, brothels, taverns, trade options and ample warehouses plus  larger than normal policing force and a wooden fort outside it with a garrison force and to cover added security duties.

Not sure of the name yet likely something 'sinful' like Meridian. Sort of a go to spot for caravans to move through for R&R.  

Secondary industries will be developed in area where feasible.

It depends a bit on your playstyle. Do you like to work on develop technology in your academies and push the borders on what is possible, both for useful developments and things that interest you. I enjoy this part quite a bit.


Write lots of stuff for the paper, throwing extravagant balls and the like to boost your honour score and get a very high social profile.


Drill and equip your army to the peak of perfection and/or use it to fight your hated foes. As has been said, you will need a casus belli to attack and make sure they have no strong allies. Also Richard take a dim view of strong positions attacking weaker ones for no good reason and the target can be expected to get a lot of advantages in the fight.


Writing lots of letters to everywhere every turn to establish contacts and allies around the world.


Improving the nation: building canals, roads, irrigation, aqueducts, new towns, boost trade. Training doctors, priests, lawyers and veterinarians. Establish sewers, fire brigades, watch men, rat catchers and night soil men in every city. Set up a postal system, map the oceans, locate mineral resources and exploit them.

Building up a network of spies around the world to figure out what is going on behind the scenes and make some mess at appropriate moments.


It all comes down to what you like to do. Sitting in your ivory tower, tinkering with your latest invention. Being the star of the party, and party all night long. Becoming richer than Croesus. Developing the nation and boast about it until all agree you are the best thing to have happened to the nation. Fight, fight and fight some more and then fight to keep it all. Talk to all, make sure everyone knows your name.

Advice don't spend much until after your April expenses, then I would raise taxes a little one or two percent, lower foreign taxes some to promote trade and keep initial expenses smart and plan for years not months, I plan my big move to hit in 1707, until then am doing smaller moves and adding more defensive spies regionally and to use them to promote and maintain trade access. And sticking to common sense more food production, sanitation and medicine, and things which bring tangible benefits.

Apologies to anybody expecting correspondence. I got to none this turn. The perils of being chatty is that it can occasionally overrun your real life ability to keep up!