Game 10

J Flower wrote:Easiest option is probably just to ask your advisors( aka Agema) for a way forward, that way you will find out what is avaliable to help you, you may even find local money lenders in your country who are ready to bail you out.

My key advisor instead of putting the Empire first executed an order made which caused this debt, my leader will be making it clear the advisors must put the needs of the Empire first and if that means hold off on a decree or order to do so. If he was man enough to say no and let me look at options to do the order I would have been fine with that. Coward.

So he likely will marry his wife quickly and put her in charge of the Treasury she is intelligent, wise and beautiful she could likely do more than his current main advisor.

But I have time until next April in a worst case scenario to get out of this my plan for now is to have the Emperor fund prospecting and then mining of anything precious found a rich gold deposit with a crash mining program would be a huge gamble but rolling the dice might save Abyssinia. God willing and by his providence. If we find Emeralds it could also help. Then we can consider options a bank loan backed by say gold could have very good terms. And if we go bankrupt we could use the gold to rebuild the fortunes of the Empire.

I will be asking countries for money to pay my army though even downsized some not paying them is not an option.

So it all hinges on my Prospectors.

If that fails then I must try other things.

Okay things I sent in.

1. Marry the Queen of Choice but simply due to the debt.

2. Prospecting paid for by the Emperor's own accounts if they find gold it would make options open up.

3. He is looking at ways to pay off the debt including just confiscating part of the wealth of the Nobles and Temples its around 2 million people so even if he takes 50% of their coin money it could fill the coffers fast with a reduction in taxes as a carrot, the army collecting the money, since if they don't they won't get paid in 1704 maybe if they must declare bankruptcy. He will issue the orders next month if needed.

4. Asking for other options of his Queen and his advisors.

So no asking for money yet but maybe letters will go out on the next month if needed.

Hmm, I wouldn't recommend confiscating the wealth of your nobles and religious - you're quite likely to provoke an up-rising and a civil war (emptying your coffers still further). My instinct would be not to panic, consult your in-house advisers and proceed steadily. But good luck with it, anyway. Fingers crossed for you.

After you have paid more troops than your treasury can pay for the classic option is to make the blighters do some work and earn their own wages by raiding the neigbours. That way they can take money, cattle, slaves etc from other peoples Nobles rather than yours.

I am sure that will be far more popular than raiding your own Nobles property.

Also if you call it a "Crusade" you can get the Temples to loan you 10%/20% of their portable wealth to fund your campaign. Promise to "convert" conquered lands and give the Temples 20% of the lands you take and they may even forgive you nicking all their spare gold esp if you complete your promise. Unlike your Nobles who will never forgive you for plundering them.

May 1703 turn has just arrived and for the edification of non players (of course) and those who would like to read the highlights of the turn from the Papal viewpoint, I can report that the world need wait no longer for an answer to the most important questions of the time.

King Louis is officially mad.  In March he attempted to annex his ally, Savoy.  In April, thinking he was Pope, he summoned his own Church Council, which this month refused to vote on his attempt to annex Avignon and accede to a rather confusing and legally illiterate series of assertions about the Galician Church.  This month he has broken diplomatic silence and I received this letter, which without commenting on the accuracy of the views expressed, I publish as evidence:

To Pope Gregory
From Louis XIV of France

I find it hard to write in civility to you given that you in turn have been writing to various leaders in Europe demanding they declare war on France. Therefore, your demands of France otherwise you will support war against France show your hypocrisy.

Louis XIV of France

Who is Pope Gregory?  The last Pope Gregory (the 15th) died in 1623.  And what does the second clause (it makes no grammatical sense so cannot be called a sentence) actually mean?  Is this enough proof that Louis is insane?  I will ask the Cardinals for their opinion, but if anyone can provide an alternative explanation why King Louis is attempting to write letters to the dead, I would like to know.  Perhaps I should give more credence to the reports from Fr.Pierre "a True Catholic of the Cevennes", Cornetto "a very disturbed yet loyal Catholic in Savoy", and the Apollo Association.  None of these characters/organisations have any links to me, but they do seem to reflect increasingly mainstream opinion in their areas.

Could King Louis have found someone called Gregory (possibly living in the Cevennes?) who he now imagines not only to be Pope, but to have declared war on France using an imaginary army.  Said imaginary army seems to have been victorious this month when 4,200 mercenaries deserted leaving a rather frightened 150 French hussars to run from a few pitchforks.  Being a military dunce I had no idea pitchforks could be so effective - I may have to ask my officer whether we should equip the Papal army of 9 men with them and if so how many spikes ... 2, 3 or 4, since it is clear they don't like it up them.   I suppose the official response from Versailles will be to claim this as a victory, but I doubt that the loss of more than 95% of the French force will be viewed as anything other than a humiliation by the rest of the world.  

I am also puzzled by Savoy's belief that the Papacy has declared war - not according to my orders or my turn details.  It is a bit late for the Duke to use insanity as his excuse to get the excommunication lifted, but perhaps he is simply following the suggestions of King Louis the Mad?  His statement in the newspaper also refers to a Pope Gregory. So could it be that we have an imposter called Gregory, going around the world pretending to be Pope, writing letters to upset France and Savoy?  Has "Pope Gregory" declared war on Savoy, in which case I do hope the Duke can send his armies to find him, for we really can't have 2 Popes.  I do find it very odd that "Pope Gregory" is mentioned by both France and Savoy this turn when I have never heard of him and I don't believe he has made an appearance before.  Does anyone know how this could have occurred? 

I would write more, but for those who are expecting long debates or correspondence this month, I may disappoint ... I have just had a new addition to the family, a rather energetic silver Bengal kitten, who although he is prone to mad half hours, makes a great deal more sense than this month's newspaper.  I would post a picture for you, but I can't work out how to do that, technology not being a Papal strongpoint.

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I'm going to try to issue a million ashrafis in bonds repaid over ten years at twice the face value, the exchange rate on top of that the funds must be in full face value.

I can handle the debt with some fund saving measures and a bump in taxes and will hopefully be a good investment for other players to get a nice bit of income a year for some needs. And will not be interest on paper so Muslims should be able to buy them. Players and NPC's can buy them.

It will cover the debt with working money longer term.

Its the first major move I don't want to have to beg nations for handouts.

Example say Russia buys a 100,000 ashrafis bond paying 110,000 in whatever that currency is over ten years he would get a 20,000 in his currency return on the investment with the exchange rate not included over ten years the Empire would use 22,000 ashrafis covering the exchange rate. This would help a Christian Orthodox nation out and be a decent investment with returns hopefully good enough.

EDIT: Oh and I discovered a diamond deposit near my capital how valuable are those?

You shouldn't put the letter on the forum . The reference to Pope Gregory is explained in the paper .. A man of characteristics or actions found undesirable by Savoy and France .

Mike wrote:You shouldn't put the letter on the forum.

Ordinarily I would agree with you, Mike.

However, in this case posting the letter proves Basileus kept his promise to reply, though whether addressing it to a long dead character and its meaningless content constitutes a reply in the accepted sense of the word is debatable.

More importantly the letter provides clear evidence of out of game collusion between France and Savoy. For how could they both have invented the same imaginary character in the same turn, one in a newspaper article and the other in a letter, without this being pre-planned? Whether there has been collusion inside or outside the forum, I believe it likely to have occurred. This is a serious charge which rightly requires evidence - the letter is that evidence. I could have simply raised this directly with the GM, but that would have been rather sneaky and I don't like to go behind the backs of other players.

If the forum moderators believe I have acted inappropriately and should have left it to them to take action privately, then I apologise.

We do seem to have an extraordinary situation where a small group of players refuse to engage properly through the game, yet have been caught out by their own carelessness. If they believe these charges are false then I am sure they can discuss that privately with the GM. I am not going to engage in a personal debate about it on the forum. I have raised the matter and provided the evidence. The forum has plenty of statements made without evidence, so perhaps it is a novelty to have the evidence available as well.

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Generally speaking from a Corsair viewpoint the last month seemed like a lot of noise but not much action.

Think the major problem is what do with a load of undrinkable Italian plonk........too sweet for any Frenchman of Taste.  Would I do better flogging it to the Scots or Russians?  That or could it be rebrand as Genoan Drain Cleaner?

Think its fair to say that reports from Paris do indeed seem to indicate that the King of France is "mad"...........only I think "mad with rage at being called fat and generally insulted by the Emperors lawyer in Rome and other imperial lackeys" is rather more likely than "mad.......as in a mental state of insanity"

The fact that the King has steam coming out of his ears and has been shouting at his clerks about 500 year old problems St Louis and other French Monarchs with bullying Popes would seem a reasonable reason for why clerks got one bullying Pope mixed up with another.

The true mad men in France would seem to be the "Sons of Apollo" in their basement who latest plan seem to be to replace King William of England, Ireland and Scotland with King James Stuart so he can "save" France.  Would be tempted to dismiss this as a truely mad plan on a par with talk about arming the Papal Guard with pitch forks.......then I noted that the Pope has just appointed a Cardinal Protector of Scotland and another Cardinal Protector of Ireland.

Is that two prongs or three for the new style Papal Guard?

Regarding bonds:

Not sure what your plan is, but if you're suggesting selling bonds with a face value of 1,000 for 500, payable in 10 years, then that's an interest rate of about 7%. That's not, in game terms, a very high interest rate and you may have trouble getting takers.

When I've had shortfalls in the past, I've had my treasurer secure a short-term loan with lenders with the understanding that the loan was secured against next year's tax revenues, and would be repaid at that time (ie less than a year). I've gotten reasonable rates doing that, and it bought me enough time to develop a more secure financial plan. Make sure you borrow enough to stay solvent until taxes roll in.

I'd agree with the 'ask your advisers' suggestion. Trying to take money off your nobles/churches will likely destroy your economy. Their money is out there doing stuff mostly, and if you loot it, all the people they employ, etc will be thrown out of work.

We don't know how long they have been calling the troublesome priest in Rome Pope Gregory unless the Vatican is reading the letters between France and Savoy as well as Scotland . That they both had a naughty Pope in mind when one is excommunicated and the other doesn't like the current Vicar of Christ is no surprise to me .
Dear King Louis ,
This hasn't happened since that awful Pope Gregory of such and such and from now on I will mock him by calling him that ..hugs Savoy .

Dear Savoy .
Me too .
Hugs , Louis

Is how I imagine the letters went the previous turn or before .

I made the bit about the reading of the Scottish diplomatic mail up .

I was seriously ill so couldn't send out diplomatic mail I did a basic number of actions with a loved ones help but had to keep it simple. I'm not ignoring people I will catch up when I can.

So a heads up to Russia and some others.

Now I have found a Diamond Deposit near my capital so have some options and am looking into ways to pay off the debt including selling the Diamond Field to npc interests for a large sum of gold and they pay taxes on the diamonds and I will supply manpower for mining. Well its not gold or silver that would be hard wealth I can easily convert to an income if it was large enough of a deposit.

I'm not allowing slavery to return its immoral plus historically slave raiding was common in the heathen south of the Empire and I'm going to defend my nations subjects from that. Period. It did open up Russia and likely will other powers who on principle oppose that and are Christian.

Once I get this debt thing covered expect requests for aid both money and other support but not until I'm in the black.

tkolter wrote:I was seriously ill so couldn't send out diplomatic mail I did a basic number of actions with a loved ones help but had to keep it simple. I'm not ignoring people I will catch up when I can.

So a heads up to Russia and some others.

Now I have found a Diamond Deposit near my capital so have some options and am looking into ways to pay off the debt including selling the Diamond Field to npc interests for a large sum of gold and they pay taxes on the diamonds and I will supply manpower for mining. Well its not gold or silver that would be hard wealth I can easily convert to an income if it was large enough of a deposit.

I'm not allowing slavery to return its immoral plus historically slave raiding was common in the heathen south of the Empire and I'm going to defend my nations subjects from that. Period. It did open up Russia and likely will other powers who on principle oppose that and are Christian.

Once I get this debt thing covered expect requests for aid both money and other support but not until I'm in the black.

Hope you are feeling better.

But if the Emperor is so against Slavery not sure about this alliance with Russia since its hard to see the legal differences between being a Russian Serf and a Slave in many other countries.

While the Ottomans raided into Russia and took prisioners as slaves this raiding was not one way and the Russians treated their captives (inc Christian Swedes) in much the same way as the Ottomans and other Asian powers. Basically......work or die & Russian whips were infamous and could kill with just a few blows

Just a brief post to inform you all that after informing the GM of my decision, I am dropping G10 effective immediately.

LGDR has survived for so long because it is grounded in the history, philosophy, culture, religion and norms of the period – it is these factors which allow players to set their own objectives.  LGDR is not purely a wargame, but G10 seems to have been reduced to such.  The refusal of certain players in G10 to respect game rules and their determination to focus on the purely military aspects of the game whilst not engaging in diplomacy creates a dilemma for all positions that have different strengths.  Since the Papacy is a diplomatic position and cannot fight wars there is no role for me.

I could, and no doubt my allies will say should, excommunicate France, the Corsairs, and any other Catholics who nail heads to doors, etc, before dropping.  But unlike some I abide by the rules of the game, one of which is that players should not use their last turn to spitefully stitch up others, however much they deserve it.  

I achieved my game objective by researching and delivering the ruling in the matter of the Spanish Succession, at the request of many players, though not necessarily with the results they hoped for.  I have always acted with integrity and independence, and will continue to do so.  I have enjoyed my correspondence with others, formed new friendships and wish you all well.  Rest assured I am not disappearing entirely, but will look to join other games which are more balanced.

Sorry to see you go Papa Clement, I have enjoyed our exchange of letters and think G10 will be poorer for your absence. Every game has its own flavour and each player their own objectives. You stated your objectives clearly a while ago and I am glad that you have had a chance to reach them.

I look forward to meeting you in another game sometime, take care.

Goodbye Papa Clemente

Speaking as a minor French player I am sorry to see Papa Clement drop out of G10 and wish if every enjoyment in whatever his next game objective is.

Think the Papal rulings in G10 have presented France and the Gallican Church with some new and unique challenges in a game of Glori du Roi.  Not many other games could have seen such frantic checking of the "Miscellany" and its section on the Gallican Church or screams of "How the hell did Saint Louis and Phillip Augustus cope with this type of problem."

You only have to look at the Honour table to see that the alliance of the Emperor-The Doge of Genoa - The Pope has battered France in the diplomatic and propaganda run up to the War of the Spanish Succession and the the Papal ruling has sunk the Bourbon claim to Naples and may have done a fatal wound to its claim to Spain itself.  But such are the twists and turns of events in Madrid you can never say for certain.

Having painted France, Savoy and the Corsairs into a corner with big target on their Chest the Pope can claim job well done and leave it to the secular rulers of Austria, Genoa, and anyone who wants the job to to carry out the Papal wishes with a song on their lips and high morale!

Good grief its just like G2 with crusades flying around........but would point out have not yet impaled anyone or nailed their heads to a door by their ears.  Its not really historic for the French Military who tended to go in for the extraction of large sums of money and burning property if their were not paid.

Boo . While I didn't think much of Papa Clements forum manner I will agree the game will significantly be poorer without the Pope . I hope you will change your mind !!

Vale Papa Clement.

I will see you around in the other games.

If you ever come via Singapore, I am good to sponsor a few Old Fashioned’s in 28 HongKong Street, or a few Mai Tai’s in Operation Dagger.

Watching them chasing their own tails is way to much fun for me, so I will stick around for a while.

Always a shame to see players leave games, for whatever reason, Wish you well in your other games .

Having you as the Papal player has certainly brought a different dynmaic into the game

Thankyou for the time & effort you have put in

Thanks for all your comments ...

Marshall - haven't got a clue who you are in game, but I can confirm that I have enjoyed receiving letters from several players.  I was lucky that the Succession gave the excuse for many players to write to me and from that point positive relations could develop between Rome and the rest of the world.

Stuart - I think most of team France's problems have been self-inflicted.  This month's newspaper did state (Oneglia) "Some exuberant corsairs grabbed the local mayor and nailed him to a doorpost by his ear" - precisely the kind of own goal team France seems prone to.  No Pope could condone that any more than he could condone the rejection of historic norms of behaviour, the rejection of Catholic teaching or persistent disobedience.  Some of it may be through ignorance such as Vic the *****'s statement that he has no fear of meeting his maker whilst being happy not to receive communion!  Catholics meet their maker when they receive communion, believing as we do in the Real Presence.  It is always going to be difficult for protestants to rule a Catholic nation as they inevitably treat the church is irrelevant rather than the guiding principle of their actions.  Building a few cathedrals and attending mass does not convince if they spend the rest of their time undermining the church and the faith they claim to profess.  

The Galician Church is a French conceit - 4 consecutive Popes condemned Louis' assertions from the 1680s (which was when it was formalised) and (at least in real history) the French bishops sided with the Pope.  At some point France will have to decide whether it is Protestant or Catholic - it cannot be nominally Catholic yet reject Papal authority, seize church assets and assert  the 'Galician' Church applies in lands occupied by France.  That amounts to a 2nd protestant reformation and direct attacks on the Catholic Church, starting more religious wars in Europe.   The Council at Tivoli would have forced the issue and under the Galician Church's own rules it would have to face reality.  That is the real target to be placed on France and when Catholic nations demand a crusade against France it would have been very difficult for any Pope to refuse.  You would have got your war, but it would have not been over the succession, and it would have been impossible for France to win - split by mass defections from her armed forces, major uprisings throughout the strongly Catholic areas of France, more colonial defections, etc.  For France to reunify itself it would have to drop its Galician Church pretensions and accept Papal authority (including my judgement on the Spanish Succession) and rejoining the Catholic Church.  France can march her armies into whatever lands she likes, but she can't take away the religion of the people or attack their Church and hope to keep them.  Wars of religion are not fought using armies, and in that kind of conflict the Pope has the deck stacked in his favour.  Since that kind of conflict would have fundamentally altered the game rationale for Austria, Spain and others, you will understand why having reached that point (and knowing I was not going to be around to see it through), I have left it to the GM and active players to decide whether they wish to go down that line rather than force it myself.   You have totally misunderstood both my playing style and motivations - I am not the Emperor's lawyer telling team France what they cannot do, and I respect the right of players to choose their own paths.  That team France made the collective decision to challenge the Church and invade Papal Fiefs was not my doing!  They had plenty of chances to make different decisions, but instead keep digging their own graves and will accept the consequences should other players wish to make this happen.   My objectives in G10 were necessarily limited to providing a peaceful resolution to the stalemate through researching then delivering the judgement - it was unlucky for Savoy that I joined the same turn he invaded a Papal fief.  I certainly did not join with the objective of starting a crusade against team France!    If I had joined 2-3 years ago when French honour was much higher and there was more evidence that players were genuinely seeking a peaceful solution, perhaps I could have helped achieved that, but by 1704 war was probably inevitable simply because some players had been preparing for it from the start and just had to find someone to thump!

Mike - I notified the GM before posting so will not be changing my mind.   Of course after the decisions referred to above have been made, then if the Papacy remains available and I am not otherwise occupied, I may return.  I think it somewhat unlikely, though!   I don't know who you play either, but I have no objection to you disagreeing with me on the forum or in the game (if you did?)  A good discussion needs alternative viewpoints.

Kerensky - You've played well and I hope will continue to do so.  My leaving should not be taken as an indication of any particular course the war may take: there is still everything to play for, just that the Papal army of an officer and 9 men (now armed with pitchforks) are not going to make a significant contribution to the war.  They are struggling to use their pitchforks to skewer rats in the missions.  They are used to fighting when they are outnumbered, but there seem to be more rats than there are protestants.

Jason - Glad you've enjoyed my roleplaying.  One of the hardest things for any Pope to do is to build positive relations with Calvinist UDP rather than start throwing religious insults around to gain quick honour points.  From the start I was determined to be an ecumenical Pope but that would have been impossible had you not reciprocated generously.  Just proves that religion need not be something that divides players or spoils games.

It is in the nature of games that players come and go for various reasons.  If I can find the right position then I hope to meet some of you again in other games.

The issue of the Spanish Succession in Game 9 is crying out for strong Papal leadership.

And Goldstar , so is Game 10 ... how about it ?

A step to far for a member of the Church of Scotland I feel.