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Log inAs a rule, I take all Agema players seriously but in your case I make an exception
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Papa Clement
one grain of grain
Ardagor
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The Revenant
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Hapsburg
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Stuart Bailey
Marshal Bombast
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Game 10
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2019-06-16
Papa Clement- King
- Number of posts : 706
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2019-02-10
Stuart Bailey wrote:
If Charles von Hapsburg dies of the Roman Pox I suspect that both France & Austria might mutter a bit but could be won over to acceptance of a united Kingdom of Iberia under King Pedro. Which if given a bit of time and a bit of work could easily become the major trade and colonial power in G10.
From the French viewpoint this is certainly a danger. Together Spain and Portugal ruled about 40% of the world's land area in 1700, controlling many raw materials. It would probably be seen as a strategic mistake by Team France to allow this unless of course they felt overwhelmed and just wanted to end a war against everyone so they could start another one in a few years to take some of the colonies that way.
Stuart Bailey wrote:
This however would still leave question marks over:
a) The Duchy of Milan - claimed by Philip of Anjou as Duke of Milan (de-facto run by his loyal Viceroy the excomunicated and banned Duc of Savoy) and also claimed by as an Imperial Fief by the HRE & awarded to himself by the HRE & his Imperial Lawyer in Rome with no consideration for Carlos II actual heirs.
The death of King Carlos does not change the judgement so legally Milan belongs to Austria.
Stuart Bailey wrote:
b) The Duchy of Flanders - as per above for the Emperor but also claimed as a French fief by Louis XIV and awarded to his Grandson.
Currently run by a Nephew of Louis as Viceroy for Philip. Said nephew - Philippe d'Orleans is a loyal hard working, under paid, put upon servant of the Royal House of Bourbon who really does not deserve the grief he is getting about his wife (Louis XIV daughter), his drinking and tennis playing friends or being made an "outlaw" by the Imperial Diet.
Oddly the GM seems to be trying to stop Philippe d'Orleans finding out which AGEMA npc's voted to place him under the Imperial ban. Even The Elector of Bavaria seems to have voted in a mixed manner which the Bishop-Princes of the Rhine seem to have totally ignored the Pope and been his friends (Damn it.....I wanted a blood feud, black spots and lackies of the Imperial Lawyer in Rome found floating face down in the Rhine).
As above, Flanders is legally Austrian. I cannot comment on who voted against the Emperor, but despite all the intimidation from Team France, did the Emperor not win the vote?
Stuart Bailey wrote:
c) The Kingdom of Sicily, Lordship of Sardinia and the Kingdom of Naples - claimed by Philip of Anjou as heir to Carlos II and also as Papal fiefs (on very dodgy grounds.......a 10th century document from the Emperor Constantine which oddly no one inc the Civil Service of Constantinople had been aware off for 500 years). With the leader of the Black Camisards, Grandmaster of the Apollo Association the Doge of Genoa acting for the Papacy.
Similarly the Papal Fiefs of Sicily, Sardinia and Naples are legally in the gift of the Papacy. The most able and honourable Doge of Genoa (who after Papal investigation was proved to have nothing to do with the Apollo Association) is the temporary Papal Viceroy of Naples. Nobody can assign or claim possession of any Papal Fief without the support of the Pope. This does not change whoever is King of Spain.
Stuart Bailey wrote:
Personally I think the Emperor is correct the only way these claims are going to be settled is with the sword. Which is why he is also demanding Navarre, Franche-Comte and Roussillon for the House of Hapsburg.
That must be something new since I left, but perhaps there are Hapsburg claims on these territories the Emperor has found. Since the judgement hoped to avoid war it was not the purpose of the Papacy to encourage war between Catholics on any other grounds, so I will leave this to any Scottish lawyers who wish to stir things up.
Stuart Bailey wrote:
Clearly as the last argument of Kings has been invoked its now all far above my Characters and the only thing is to dust off the letters of Marque and make sure they stand up in a Scots Prize Count.
Should that be prize court?
Never really understood the idea that war is the last argument of kings - surely the last argument is during the peace talks which must inevitably follow any war?
Last edited by Papa Clement on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Papa Clement- King
- Number of posts : 706
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2019-02-10
Jason2 wrote:As a rule, I take all Agema players seriously but in your case I make an exception
Well, I must try to do something to encourage you to change your mind.
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2019-06-16
Well a Leopard can change its shorts I guess but let's be frank after G7 you may need to change a lot of shorts before I change
Last edited by Jason2 on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Papa Clement- King
- Number of posts : 706
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Registration date : 2019-02-10
Jason2 wrote:Well a Leopard can change its shorts I guess but let's be frank after G7 you may to need change a lot of shorts before I change
Why change a winning formula?
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2019-06-16
Depends on how one defines winning. I want us all to win-we all have a good game, we all enjoy playing the games, we all feel we have achieved something in doing so, we even make some online friends in the process. That for me is a winning formula and if that happens I will have won, even if I don't end up the richest, most powerful position in game.
If however you want to crush other players, to see them driven from the game before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women at the money and time they have wasted on it...then that is not a winning formula I want to be part of.
If however you want to crush other players, to see them driven from the game before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women at the money and time they have wasted on it...then that is not a winning formula I want to be part of.
Papa Clement- King
- Number of posts : 706
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2019-02-10
Jason2 wrote:Depends on how one defines winning. I want us all to win-we all have a good game, we all enjoy playing the games, we all feel we have achieved something in doing so, we even make some online friends in the process. That for me is a winning formula and if that happens I will have won, even if I don't end up the richest, most powerful position in game.
If however you want to crush other players, to see them driven from the game before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women at the money and time they have wasted on it...then that is not a winning formula I want to be part of.
I don't think anything I have done has stopped you winning as you define it, quite the contrary. As you well know we have broadly the same definition. That said any player who treacherously changes sides and betrays plans to the enemy doesn't normally expect to get off as lightly as you did. You swapped sides at the wrong time assuming I would be defeated, tried your best to ensure that happened, and now have to live with the consequences of my victory. I don't need to cause problems for you because you did that yourself. Should you wish for better relations with me in the game then you only have to write.
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2019-06-16
Papa Clement wrote:Jason2 wrote:Depends on how one defines winning. I want us all to win-we all have a good game, we all enjoy playing the games, we all feel we have achieved something in doing so, we even make some online friends in the process. That for me is a winning formula and if that happens I will have won, even if I don't end up the richest, most powerful position in game.
If however you want to crush other players, to see them driven from the game before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women at the money and time they have wasted on it...then that is not a winning formula I want to be part of.
I don't think anything I have done has stopped you winning as you define it, quite the contrary. As you well know we have broadly the same definition. That said any player who treacherously changes sides and betrays plans to the enemy doesn't normally expect to get off as lightly as you did. You swapped sides at the wrong time assuming I would be defeated, tried your best to ensure that happened, and now have to live with the consequences of my victory. I don't need to cause problems for you because you did that yourself. Should you wish for better relations with me in the game then you only have to write.
Seriously? You actually believe that complete pile of bullshit you've just typed??????? You are a bigger moron than I gave you credit for if this is the case.
I misjudged you...my days of not taking you seriously have only just started
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
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Registration date : 2019-06-16
And NO!!!! I DIDN'T BETRAY YOU, YOU COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON
If you actually believe I did, give up on your plans for a career change because you are a terrible judge of human character
If you actually believe I did, give up on your plans for a career change because you are a terrible judge of human character
Papa Clement- King
- Number of posts : 706
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Registration date : 2019-02-10
Jason2 wrote:And NO!!!! I DIDN'T BETRAY YOU, YOU COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON
If you actually believe I did, give up on your plans for a career change because you are a terrible judge of human character
I am simply quoting your game letter to me in which you specified that you had betrayed my plans ... if you didn't then it was a fairly stupid thing to write. Unlike you, I take all threats seriously. Would you like me to quote the letter back to you?
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2019-06-16
You mean
"I am most insistent that you do not even attempt to base your military forces at Changi. If you do so I will consider that a breach of diplomatic protocol that mean I would be forced to break off diplomatic ties with you; in addition I would feel justified in revealing your intentions in your unwanted basing of forces here." (from letter dated February 1713 from Russian Far East to England)
It was a threat that if you did use my territory to attack others I would reveal your plans. You didn't, so I didn't. And frankly if I had, my plan was to make a public announcement in the paper, you would have known I had "betrayed" you.
But whatever, I doubt you will believe me, I suspect even if Richard came on and said "yep, Jason didn't tell anyone about your plans", you still wouldn't believe I hadn't revealed your plans to the NPC Dutch
"I am most insistent that you do not even attempt to base your military forces at Changi. If you do so I will consider that a breach of diplomatic protocol that mean I would be forced to break off diplomatic ties with you; in addition I would feel justified in revealing your intentions in your unwanted basing of forces here." (from letter dated February 1713 from Russian Far East to England)
It was a threat that if you did use my territory to attack others I would reveal your plans. You didn't, so I didn't. And frankly if I had, my plan was to make a public announcement in the paper, you would have known I had "betrayed" you.
But whatever, I doubt you will believe me, I suspect even if Richard came on and said "yep, Jason didn't tell anyone about your plans", you still wouldn't believe I hadn't revealed your plans to the NPC Dutch
Papa Clement- King
- Number of posts : 706
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Registration date : 2019-02-10
Jason2 wrote:You mean
"I am most insistent that you do not even attempt to base your military forces at Changi. If you do so I will consider that a breach of diplomatic protocol that mean I would be forced to break off diplomatic ties with you; in addition I would feel justified in revealing your intentions in your unwanted basing of forces here."
It was a threat that if you did use my territory to attack others I would reveal your plans. You didn't, so I didn't. And frankly if I had, my plan was to make a public announcement in the paper, you would have known I had "betrayed" you.
I informed you that my forces were heading for Changi out of courtesy and to avoid the possibility of causing any misunderstanding, just as I informed you why they were there and what they were goign to do. Changi is sovereign English territory, ceded before Russia Dept East was created. You failed to respond for real world reasons for a couple of months during which time I could have changed the order, but by the time you let me know your feelings (and had passed a law to try and prevent my order from happening) it was too late to cancel the order under the delayed order rules. My forces arrived, were based at Changi, did attack others, you did break off diplomatic ties. Given that 3 out of 4 criteria were met and you took the action you promised, I would surely have been a bit of a moron if I did not expect you to carry out your threat to reveal my plans to others. You made no mention in the letter that you would publish them in the newspaper which would have compromised your superior, the Tsar, so naturally you did it instead through diplomatic orders or other letters.
Your subsequent actions have also demonstrated a certain hostility towards my fleet which suggests you have disregarded understandings between England and Russia. So your own actions have given me very good reasons for believing this and to change it you will need to provide very good evidence within the game which clears you.
I closed Changi Yard (but have not ceded any territory) as part of a compromise agreed with the Tsar in an effort to improve relations with you, but clearly that hasn't worked.
In case anyone is wondering, game letters have been sent some time ago which make these points, but it has been months since Jason2 has bothered to reply - this kind of confirms that he has broken off diplomatic relations.
If you don't reply to letters then it is somewhat difficult to influence me since it is hard to pick through all the propaganda in newspapers.
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
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Registration date : 2019-06-16
I still didn't reveal your plans, that's not my style, I don't do things like that in secret. And, to be honest, the way I read it, your forces simply passed through Chinagi and went on to attack others, they didn't use it as a base as attack others. And turning up at another active player's territory and demanding supplies, well you might be surprised but most players hesitate before doing that or finding it acceptable.
And there was only one letter of yours I didn't reply to, the last one you sent me, simply because I saw no point anymore in communicating with you. I can assure you I have no desire to recommence communications.
You have thought the worst of me in G7, you have on occasion suggested on the G10 thread I was being devious in my relationships with England and the UDP. That is your decision, my decision is to no longer let that slide and bite back against it.
And there was only one letter of yours I didn't reply to, the last one you sent me, simply because I saw no point anymore in communicating with you. I can assure you I have no desire to recommence communications.
You have thought the worst of me in G7, you have on occasion suggested on the G10 thread I was being devious in my relationships with England and the UDP. That is your decision, my decision is to no longer let that slide and bite back against it.
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
Location : Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2019-06-16
And for something completely different, I did mention it in a reply to something Stuart posted earlier but what are people's thoughts on the Apollo Brotherhood? is it a Swashbuckler-type role or something else?
Marshal Bombast- Duke
- Number of posts : 386
Age : 52
Location : Essex, UK
Reputation : 8
Registration date : 2009-01-23
Jason2 wrote:And for something completely different, I did mention it in a reply to something Stuart posted earlier but what are people's thoughts on the Apollo Brotherhood? is it a Swashbuckler-type role or something else?
Seems a bit samey for a swashbuckler role, not sure what they are getting from it and doesn't sound like the way the rules are set up for turns. I suspect more like a spy with a freemason/secret society set up. Am I wrong or does this type of thing happen in a lot of the TGOK games for besmirching the honour of someone?
Papa Clement- King
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Registration date : 2019-02-10
Jason2 wrote:I still didn't reveal your plans, that's not my style, I don't do things like that in secret. And, to be honest, the way I read it, your forces simply passed through Changi and went on to attack others, they didn't use it as a base as attack others.
Honestly Jason2, you are now telling me that you know what my orders are better than I do?
As for the supply question, Russia and England have an agreement to supply each other on request as you well know. You chose to snub my Commodore when he politely reminded you of that agreement and asked for supplies, yet have made out on the forum that I have done something outrageous which is clearly misrepresenting the situation.
And you expect me to believe that your written threats were never carried out because you just don't do that kind of thing?
Well at least you know where you are with me - if I say I'll do something I do it.
Jason2 wrote:
And there was only one letter of yours I didn't reply to, the last one you sent me, simply because I saw no point anymore in communicating with you. I can assure you I have no desire to recommence communications.
Naturally - you stated that you did not wish to exchange correspondence and I respected your decision. Just the kind of behaviour you would have expected from someone like me who is friendly, relaxed and reasonable, the voice of moderation and common sense who generally seeks compromise and tries to get on with everyone - somewhat different to the caricature so often presented of me by others on the forum. Generally I have found that you share those characteristics, except for the last so many months when dealing with me. I have already demonstrated by my actions in the game that I have forgiven you so it is a shame that you continue to be somewhat hostile towards me. You know where I am in the game if you wish to change your mind and recover your reputation.
Last edited by Papa Clement on Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Jason2- King
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Marshal Bombast wrote:Jason2 wrote:And for something completely different, I did mention it in a reply to something Stuart posted earlier but what are people's thoughts on the Apollo Brotherhood? is it a Swashbuckler-type role or something else?
Seems a bit samey for a swashbuckler role, not sure what they are getting from it and doesn't sound like the way the rules are set up for turns. I suspect more like a spy with a freemason/secret society set up. Am I wrong or does this type of thing happen in a lot of the TGOK games for besmirching the honour of someone?
That's a good point, I hadn't considered the spy option. If I were honest, I am not particularly good with spies and so often forget what they can do (beyond spying!)
Stuart Bailey- Emperor of Europe
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Jason2 wrote:Marshal Bombast wrote:Jason2 wrote:And for something completely different, I did mention it in a reply to something Stuart posted earlier but what are people's thoughts on the Apollo Brotherhood? is it a Swashbuckler-type role or something else?
Seems a bit samey for a swashbuckler role, not sure what they are getting from it and doesn't sound like the way the rules are set up for turns. I suspect more like a spy with a freemason/secret society set up. Am I wrong or does this type of thing happen in a lot of the TGOK games for besmirching the honour of someone?
That's a good point, I hadn't considered the spy option. If I were honest, I am not particularly good with spies and so often forget what they can do (beyond spying!)
It is possible that the Apollo Brotherhood does not exist other than as a "propaganda" attack on the honour of France.
The advantage with this type of honour attack is that the target may not be able to work out who is attacking them and also you can be really rude without your own Nobles going "I say thats a bit much and dropping your honour score."
The disadvantage of this form of attack is that you are handing the target "Carte Blanche" to attack anyone he wants on order to avenge the slight on his honour.
Jason2- King
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Stuart Bailey wrote:Jason2 wrote:Marshal Bombast wrote:Jason2 wrote:And for something completely different, I did mention it in a reply to something Stuart posted earlier but what are people's thoughts on the Apollo Brotherhood? is it a Swashbuckler-type role or something else?
Seems a bit samey for a swashbuckler role, not sure what they are getting from it and doesn't sound like the way the rules are set up for turns. I suspect more like a spy with a freemason/secret society set up. Am I wrong or does this type of thing happen in a lot of the TGOK games for besmirching the honour of someone?
That's a good point, I hadn't considered the spy option. If I were honest, I am not particularly good with spies and so often forget what they can do (beyond spying!)
It is possible that the Apollo Brotherhood does not exist other than as a "propaganda" attack on the honour of France.
The advantage with this type of honour attack is that the target may not be able to work out who is attacking them and also you can be really rude without your own Nobles going "I say thats a bit much and dropping your honour score."
The disadvantage of this form of attack is that you are handing the target "Carte Blanche" to attack anyone he wants on order to avenge the slight on his honour.
I am starting to think I am not deviously minded enough for this game afterall
Never occurred to me could be a propaganda thing. Though the Brotherhood (inc sisters) does seem to be claiming to be going after a lot of non-French...Stuart are you feeling a bit picked up? Regardless, does add to the fun for me
Papa Clement- King
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Stuart Bailey wrote:It is possible that the Apollo Brotherhood does not exist other than as a "propaganda" attack on the honour of France.
That sounds highly plausible to me - should be easy to prove: when did the Apollo Brotherhood first appear? Before the time I joined, so that puts the Papacy in the clear.
Stuart Bailey wrote:The advantage with this type of honour attack is that the target may not be able to work out who is attacking them and also you can be really rude without your own Nobles going "I say thats a bit much and dropping your honour score."
The disadvantage of this form of attack is that you are handing the target "Carte Blanche" to attack anyone he wants on order to avenge the slight on his honour.
Still think it is a rather risky kind of thing to do. Someone who spends that amount of time writing such propaganda is surely likely to give himself away somehow. Find the publisher? If it does prove to be coming from inside xyz then it could be a noble trying to gain favour with his monarch by doing what he thinks will please him?
I don't think it follows that it gives you carte blanche to attack anyone you suspect could be behind it. It could simply be a protestant noble in Versailles?
Papa Clement- King
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Do like the idea that it could be a Swashbuckler character, though. That would make it incredibly difficult to track down.
Hapsburg- Viscount
- Number of posts : 173
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The Emperor hasn't claimed any French territory bordering Spain or the HRE. The newspaper confirms this.
Early turn for me as I am on holiday soon.................in France lol
Early turn for me as I am on holiday soon.................in France lol
Papa Clement- King
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Registration date : 2019-02-10
Hapsburg wrote:The Emperor hasn't claimed any French territory bordering Spain or the HRE. The newspaper confirms this.
Early turn for me as I am on holiday soon.................in France lol
Personal reconnaissance - I'm impressed! With this sort of commitment things are looking up for Team Hapsburg
Jason2- King
- Number of posts : 689
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Hapsburg wrote:The Emperor hasn't claimed any French territory bordering Spain or the HRE. The newspaper confirms this.
Early turn for me as I am on holiday soon.................in France lol
Enjoy yourself...but no sneaky annexing parts of it while you're there
On Apollo, part of the reason I wondered if it was a Swashbuckler role was if I were playing Swashbuckler, well that is the sort of role I would like to do-not a merchant or an officer trying to progress but a bit of a rabblerouser or revolutionary, trying to cause trouble everywhere, just sounds fun
Stuart Bailey- Emperor of Europe
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Papa Clement wrote:Stuart Bailey wrote:
If Charles von Hapsburg dies of the Roman Pox I suspect that both France & Austria might mutter a bit but could be won over to acceptance of a united Kingdom of Iberia under King Pedro. Which if given a bit of time and a bit of work could easily become the major trade and colonial power in G10.
From the French viewpoint this is certainly a danger. Together Spain and Portugal ruled about 40% of the world's land area in 1700, controlling many raw materials. It would probably be seen as a strategic mistake by Team France to allow this unless of course they felt overwhelmed and just wanted to end a war against everyone so they could start another one in a few years to take some of the colonies that way.......Papa Clement
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Actually both France and Austria are fairly small trade/colonial powers - In terms of trade and colonies the main (friendly?) rivals to the Iberian powers are the Anglo-Dutch-Scots.
Being Traders at heart I suspect they will agree to a united Iberia.......but also expect King Pedro of Iberia to have to pay a stiff price for this backing.
As for the Pope's LEGAL ruling being against Pedro taking the Crown of Spain and saying Naples, Sicily and Sardinia belong to the Papacy and that Milan & Flanders belong to the Emperor. Well his other LEGAL ruling is that James Stuart is King of England & Scotland & that the rebel part of Flanders (AKA the UDP) LEGALLY belongs to the King of Spain. My feeling is that Charles von Hapsburg may find it a bit hard to enforce these rulings in his favour from a cell in Savoy.
The question now is can the mighty Brotherhood of Apollo find his cell, spirit him out of Savoy, cure him of the Roman Pox and sit him on the throne of Spain ready to help return James Stuart to his LEGAL thrones??????? A noble deed on a par with the Doge of Genoa taking Naples with nothing more than a Squadron of Horse, style, wit and a damn good woodwind section.
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