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Agema Publications

A forum for the disscussion of the Play by Mail games from Agema Publications


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Papa Clement
one grain of grain
Ardagor
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    Game 10

    Deacon
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    Post by Deacon Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:57 pm


    The Americans were independent at that point in Game 3. It was late in the 1730s. They sent an ambassador to a tribe of Indians that killed and ate said American ambassador. Naturally, the Americans declared war. France who said they were allied with the Indians then declared war on the colonies in defense of the cannibal indians.

    There was some history between the Pope and France at that point, but even if there hadn't been, a war declared in defense of an act of cannibalism seemed way beyond the pale to me. I roasted the French over it, and got the sense at the time that my words struck home.

    I ended up dropping the position, my first, not long after, so I never got to see how it resolved. The game was old and well established. It was hard for a new player of the Papacy to find a place in the game. The catholic powers mostly ignored me, while the protestant ones did their traditional anti-papist rants.

    I've tried to take that lesson and be welcoming to new players in games since it can be hard to fit in when alliances are well established.
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    Post by Papa Clement Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:33 pm

    Deacon wrote:
    The Americans were independent at that point in Game 3. It was late in the 1730s. They sent an ambassador to a tribe of Indians that killed and ate said American ambassador. Naturally, the Americans declared war. France who said they were allied with the Indians then declared war on the colonies in defense of the cannibal indians.

    There was some history between the Pope and France at that point, but even if there hadn't been, a war declared in defense of an act of cannibalism seemed way beyond the pale to me. I roasted the French over it, and got the sense at the time that my words struck home.

    I ended up dropping the position, my first, not long after, so I never got to see how it resolved. The game was old and well established. It was hard for a new player of the Papacy to find a place in the game. The catholic powers mostly ignored me, while the protestant ones did their traditional anti-papist rants.

    I've tried to take that lesson and be welcoming to new players in games since it can be hard to fit in when alliances are well established.

    Hmmm ... perhaps someone else can describe how it was resolved, but I can see your point(s).

    I suppose to most Catholic nations it was a case of 1 heathen (tribe) against other non-Catholics, so why should they risk upsetting France. But, of course, they forget that there were some Catholics in America, and they could surely have gained some easy honour points by backing you. I'm surprised the Spanish didn't intervene and either declare war on the tribe or on France.

    I think that is the way I would have approached it - asking if the ambassador was Catholic and if he was then condemning it; otherwise waiting for others to make their observations rather than jumping in and trying to lead the discussion. Might sound a bit unlike me, but I've found one of the hardest things is actually getting people to care about religion or morality at all (despite the strong suggestions in the rules that they should), so unless there is a clear and direct Catholic interest you do risk the backlash by saying anything. It does very much depend on the players, of course, but I do find anti-papist rants somewhat out of place when the Pope is not making a doctrinal point against non-Catholics. In G10 I was fairly lucky with this, probably because I made it clear that I was trying to pursue a more ecumenical line, but I can imagine that through boredom some players would have increasingly been tempted to try to boost their own honour by attacking the principle of the existence of the Papacy in increasingly personal ways. I doubt they would have achieved their honour objectives and to more enlightened players they would just have appeared ridiculous and somewhat cowardly. But then there are always those in every game.

    I certainly agree with your final point about welcoming new players to established games. There are always some gaps in every game or critical positions which were filled, but the player had to drop for real world reasons. It is always better if those positions are able to be filled before the game becomes paralysed. G10 would have turned out very differently if there had been an active Spain since 1700 and other players knew there was someone to ally with who would respond.
    Jason2
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    Post by Jason2 Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:43 pm

    Deacon wrote:
    The Americans were independent at that point in Game 3. It was late in the 1730s. They sent an ambassador to a tribe of Indians that killed and ate said American ambassador. Naturally, the Americans declared war. France who said they were allied with the Indians then declared war on the colonies in defense of the cannibal indians.

    There was some history between the Pope and France at that point, but even if there hadn't been, a war declared in defense of an act of cannibalism seemed way beyond the pale to me. I roasted the French over it, and got the sense at the time that my words struck home.

    I ended up dropping the position, my first, not long after, so I never got to see how it resolved. The game was old and well established. It was hard for a new player of the Papacy to find a place in the game. The catholic powers mostly ignored me, while the protestant ones did their traditional anti-papist rants.

    I've tried to take that lesson and be welcoming to new players in games since it can be hard to fit in when alliances are well established.

    I do remember this as I was Denmark , also my first position, in G3 (a very small Denmark with no Norway, Iceland or Greenland). I don't think the situation ever got resolved and the war dragged on until the game ended-my reading of it was always that the French just used it to try and reclaim Quebec.

    Don't think I took an anti-papal stance though, I was too busy trying to maintain the right level of friendship and mistrust among the Protestant powers so none of them invaded me Very Happy
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    Post by J Flower Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:19 am

    Just been pondering over the coming turn.

    That we appear to have a new Spanish player is great news for the game, maybe the new player can find a solution for the future of Spain. Certainly a position with challenges.

    1) Damaged due to Famine
    2) Financial mess.
    3) Half the Colonial Empire has been swallowed up by other positions
    4) Most of the Merchant mairne has been press-ganged
    5) Good news that the new king was officially crowned by the Pope (HIS BOSS?), & Louis of France; Leopold of Austria & countless other important people have recognised & endorsed Karlos as king.
    6) Bad news is new king is a house guest of the man formally known as the Duke of Savoy.

    It has been said the Spanish position is a bit of a poisoned chalice, maybe a better description is a basket case.

    Wish the new player , whoever you are a lotof luck & enjoymen tin the new posiiton

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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:07 pm

    J Flower wrote:Just been pondering over the coming turn.

    That we appear to have a new Spanish player is great news for the game, maybe the new player can find a solution for the future of Spain. Certainly a position with challenges.

    1) Damaged due to Famine
    2) Financial mess.
    3) Half the Colonial Empire has been swallowed up by other positions
    4) Most of the Merchant mairne has been press-ganged
    5) Good news that the new king was officially crowned by the Pope (HIS BOSS?), & Louis of France;  Leopold of Austria & countless other important people have recognised & endorsed Karlos as king.
    6) Bad news is new king is a house guest of the man formally known as the Duke of Savoy.

    It has been said the Spanish position is a bit of  a poisoned chalice, maybe a better description is a basket case.

    Wish the new player , whoever you are a lotof luck & enjoymen tin the new posiiton



    Speaking as someone who play's Spain in G7 I think the famine & financial mess can be recovered with a bit of peace. Corsairs and their ilk are no more than annoying (very annoying when they sack Havanna and do not give your Primate of Africa back even after the ransom was paid).

    But the problem of finding a King seems to be getting worse not better:

    My feeling is that no one comes out of the Duc of Savoy's black cells alive. I wonder who sent Charles von Hapsburg across Savoy in civilian clothes, with a large sum of cash on the same turn as the Austrians invade the place? Was it just unfortunate or is someone trying to give Savoy enough rope to hang himself? Did the Doge of Genoa or someone else also tip off the Patrols that Charles was on his way, riding a pale horse, route etc etc?

    Think the political problem for Spain is not so much a case of Savoy holding its King captive ......quick we need to declare war and save the King.

    But that the fact that Carlos was crowned King of Spain at the price of the Papacy/Genoa taking Naples, Sardinia and Sicily while Milan & Flanders are ceded to the Emperor. Which from a Madrid point of view seems a very high price to pay for a King currently sat in the Duc of Savoy's black cells on spying charges with a Austrian invasion happening.

    This means Madrid could end up basically fighting a war with France and Savoy to win Milan/Flanders for Austria and Naples/Sardinia/Sicily for the Papacy/Genoa and only get a head rather than a head of state. Think I would have been tempted to look at the other alternatives like Pedro of Portugal or Philip of Anjou.

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    Post by Papa Clement Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:40 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:But the problem of finding a King seems to be getting worse not better: My feeling is that no one comes out of the Duc of Savoy's black cells alive. I wonder who sent Charles von Hapsburg across Savoy in civilian clothes, with a large sum of cash on the same turn as the Austrians invade the place? Was it just unfortunate or is someone trying to give Savoy enough rope to hang himself? Did the Doge of Genoa or someone else also tip off the Patrols that Charles was on his way, riding a pale horse, route etc etc?

    This is indeed a puzzle - who would have anything to gain from King Carlos being captured?

    As previously discussed it will not help lift the excommunication of the ex-Duke of Savoy, nor give France any bargaining power. I don't see how the Doge of Genoa could benefit either - he does not owe anything to Spain. If Austria was looking for a different excuse to declare war, then his timing is out, so again there is nothing to be gained there.

    If we are being really Machiavellian, then the finger could be pointed at:
    1. Cardinal Portocarrero - with the King unable to rule, as regent he would continue in power.
    2. King Pedro - if he has been convinced by others that he is still in with a chance at the crown, he would need to eliminate the legal king.

    Neither of these really make much sense to me. By any impartial assessment, Cardinal P has hardly been a resounding success as regent and could even be considered out of his depth. He may welcome the chance to step down as regent and concentrate on his spiritual duties. As for King Pedro, this does seem somewhat out of character and if he did have anything to do with it then it would surely open him up to blackmail which would make it impossible for him to rule Spain.

    My conclusion is that it is simply one of those unexpected events which happen rather than the result of a deliberate order.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Think the political problem for Spain is not so much a case of Savoy holding its King captive ... but that the fact that Carlos was crowned King of Spain at the price of the Papacy/Genoa taking Naples, Sardinia and Sicily while Milan & Flanders are ceded to the Emperor. Which from a Madrid point of view seems a very high price to pay for a King currently sat in the Duc of Savoy's black cells on spying charges with a Austrian invasion happening.

    This means Madrid could end up basically fighting a war with France and Savoy to win Milan/Flanders for Austria and Naples/Sardinia/Sicily for the Papacy/Genoa and only get a head rather than a head of state. Think I would have been tempted to look at the other alternatives like Pedro of Portugal or Philip of Anjou.

    Nice try ... you are deliberately confusing several issues here Stuart, implying that there was some kind of trade-off made. There was not: the judgement did not create new Papal or Imperial fiefs, simply confirm what everyone knew before. So irrespective of who is King of Spain, Austria rules Milan/Flanders while the Papal fiefs remain in the gift of the Pope.

    Spain could indeed end up fighting a war, but the last time I read about it, Team France was attacking Spain (and just about everyone else), not the other way around. And to imply that Team France is somehow hard done by and doesn't really want to attack others is a rather poor joke.



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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:25 pm

    There may not be an exact trade off of a King for Territory in G10 but if in G7 the Pope had tried to re-assign Naples, Sicily and Sardinia back to the Papal States and his Dodgy side kick in Genoa. Let alone break the family compact and give Flanders and Milan to Austria I think the scream of pain & rage from Madrid would probably have Cardinals in Rome and Council Members of the Republic of St George taking to their beds and writing their wills.

    From the viewpoint of the Spanish Nobility as I played them this is one rubbish deal! Which does not keep the Spanish Empire intact or provide the Empire with additional security against potential threats from France or the Anglo-Dutch to the colonies. Even if events like Famines etc had forced it on me I think I would have just sit back & nurse maided Spain and its Empire back to Economic health. While watching and waiting for a chance to reclaim lost Italian territory.

    Flanders is more of a moot point. While in G7 I have grown very fond of it in all honesty its a liability which costs a fortune to defend and drags you into all sorts of issues you can do without. Have the time I think Flanders only exists because the French and the UDP do not want to share a common border.

    Mind you it has to be said G7 & G10 Spain are not the same and have reacted in very different ways.......for intance G7 Spain would have attacked Savoy the turn after his take over of Milan. So perhaps Cardinal P in G10 will just accept the Papal ruling and give up Naples etc to the Papacy, Flanders & Milan to Austria & pay the French the outstanding dowry. Blowed if I would
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    Post by Papa Clement Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:52 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:There may not be an exact trade off of a King for Territory in G10 but if in G7 the Pope had tried to re-assign Naples, Sicily and Sardinia back to the Papal States and his Dodgy side kick in Genoa. Let alone break the family compact and give Flanders and Milan to Austria I think the scream of pain & rage from Madrid would probably have Cardinals in Rome and Council Members of the Republic of St George taking to their beds and writing their wills.

    From the viewpoint of the Spanish Nobility as I played them this is one rubbish deal! Which does not keep the Spanish Empire intact or provide the Empire with additional security against potential threats from France or the Anglo-Dutch to the colonies. Even if events like Famines etc had forced it on me I think I would have just sit back & nurse maided Spain and its Empire back to Economic health. While watching and waiting for a chance to reclaim lost Italian territory.

    G10 and G7 are very different. You probably know better than me, but in G7 I don't remember Spain ever denying that the Papal fiefs were held by permission of the Pope. With an agreed heir and a peaceful transition, it could have been argued (and possibly was) that it was in the best interests of the people of the Fiefs that they would be assigned to the new King of Spain. You generally have taken the path of least resistance in positioning Spain as a Catholic champion, strongly supporting the Papacy (except in relation to England) - and were supported in turn by active Jesuits. This must have helped keep your honour high and is broadly historical.

    In G10, of course, this didn't happen because of Spain being seen as an inactive nation to be divided by anyone who wanted a piece of it. There is nothing (theoretically) to stop the Papacy in G10 assigning the Fiefs back to Spain if Spain can prove that it is in their interests. This does not change the legal standing of the Fiefs as Papal and within the gift of the Pope. The best way of thinking of the Fiefs is that it potentially keeps the Spanish Empire together for no other reason than that the Fiefs cannot be conquered or assigned by anyone other than the Pope. It is probably this which has so annoyed Team France - they thought they could grab bits without any resistance, but in reality they cannot gain legal title to them without Papal approval. Had France been more reasonable and accepted the judgement fully, forced its ally, Savoy, to withdraw from Milan and Sardinia, withdrawn its own troops/ships from Sicily, and apologised, then not only would French honour be much higher, but it was perfectly possible that a case could have been made to the Papacy to grant one of the fiefs to France. Trouble is that by writing letters consisting of sporadic 2 sentences every few months backed up by a refusal to withdraw and more attacks on Papal lands, France blew any such chance. Diplomacy matters, but Team France does not seem to do diplomacy.

    The judgement was asked for by both sides, and we reached this stage because there was no alternative. Time was lost, mainly for the reasons already stated: an inactive Spain seen as ripe for picking by anyone and everyone. We may be underestimating Spain, but I doubt she is in the condition to fight everyone. As for your point about the economic health of Spain, how many Spanish liners have the Corsairs captured to date? Don't think that helps boost Spain's EH very much. Even under a very energetic player who had a lot of luck, I think that this early in the game against a well prepared team of wargamers who do not engage properly in diplomacy, Spain would have struggled. You were potentially in that situation in G7 but had the advantage of an active Austria (Basileus) so had 2/3rds of G10's Team France in key positions, yet you chose to accept the compromise offered by France to avert war. You would not have done that unless you appreciated the weakness of Spain that early in the game.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Flanders is more of a moot point. While in G7 I have grown very fond of it in all honesty its a liability which costs a fortune to defend and drags you into all sorts of issues you can do without. Have the time I think Flanders only exists because the French and the UDP do not want to share a common border.

    I can agree with that. Flanders would be interesting to play as a standalone position if it wasn't so hard to defend. If UDP attacks it then it will upset powerful Catholic neighbours and give France the excuse to annex the rest of it. If France attacks it then it is reliant on the interest of others to come to her aid, and after the inevitable war destroys most of it all that hard work in building the country up has to start again. Not a great deal of fun for nation builders.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Mind you it has to be said G7 & G10 Spain are not the same and have reacted in very different ways.......for instance G7 Spain would have attacked Savoy the turn after his take over of Milan. So perhaps Cardinal P in G10 will just accept the Papal ruling and give up Naples etc to the Papacy, Flanders & Milan to Austria & pay the French the outstanding dowry. Blowed if I would

    Savoy's invasion of Milan was something I never understood. From what I was able to establish in researching the judgement, the excuse was fabricated and possibly designed to trigger war with Spain so Team France could play the victim. Had Spain been active then that may well have worked since I can't imagine any Spanish player simply ignoring the invasion of a key part of its territory. Milan in a sense drags both Austria and Spain into close co-operation as I expect they will both gain substantial honour by supporting each other. Unifying powerful enemies is rarely a smart thing to do.

    I hope Spain in G10 does realise that the Papal judgement underpins support for him and gives him a strong base of allies. Going against that judgement will probably divide Spain into factions and trigger civil war which is not the best of start for any new player.
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    Post by Ardagor Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:39 pm

    Regarding the cannibal friends of France in America I can give you the short version from the perspective of The Americas Republic.

    Much of French the French colonies had been taken by England in a early colonial war and France was busily working on recovering the territory when I joined in the mid thirties. They had been building fortifications and recruiting militias on Republican soil.

    Then it was reported in the newspaper, no less, that the French ambassador to the Caddo Indians offered them gifts and an alliance if they would join them in a war against the Americas Republic, quite openly.

    I sent an American ambassador to the Caddo in hope of stopping this, but they killed and ate him. The French ambassador watched all this without getting involved but refused to actually join in on the feast.

    The Americas Republic then declared war on the Caddo for this atrocity, and the French responded by declaring war on The Americas Republic to support their ally.

    I was expecting a rather small scale colonial war but the very next month the French arrived in Quebec with 200 SOL`s, 97 FRG, 109 F + cavalry/artillery. About the double of my entire armed forces. This was obviously well planned and prepared for. And a long and at times bloody war was underway.

    Unfortunately the game ended before a definite conclusion could be reached.
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    Post by Papa Clement Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:02 pm

    Ardagor wrote:Regarding the cannibal friends of France in America I can give you the short version from the perspective of The Americas Republic.

    Much of French the French colonies had been taken by England in a early colonial war and France was busily working on recovering the territory when I joined in the mid thirties. They had been building fortifications and recruiting militias on Republican soil.

    Sounds like this was part of a longer term plan to retake their lost colonies?

    Ardagor wrote:Then it was reported in the newspaper, no less, that the French ambassador to the Caddo Indians offered them gifts and an alliance if they would join them in a war against the Americas Republic, quite openly.

    I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that - the player could have intended a private meeting, but it was reported openly. I have noticed that some players only want to do things in private and occasionally slip up. Personally I tend to find it is much easier to do things in the open as it leads to fewer misunderstandings, unless, of course that is the reason for the meeting in the first place.

    Ardagor wrote:I sent an American ambassador to the Caddo in hope of stopping this, but they killed and ate him. The French ambassador watched all this without getting involved but refused to actually join in on the feast.

    If the French ambassador had been given orders to turn the Caddo against America then that would explain why he didn't get involved. Of course he might have simply not been given any fresh orders out of embarrassment that his private meeting had been made public, so was simply paralysed with fear that he could be eaten next?

    As to why they killed/ate him, this was not necessarily the fault of France. The Caddo were not known for cannibalism, but were farmers. I'm speculating, but it is possible that France had neglected its colonies and left the Caddo alone; then you conquered the colonies, invested heavily in grain production, forcing the Caddo onto less productive lands, or trespassed on tribal sites, so they were not particularly well disposed towards you anyway. After the French offered them an alliance (to return to the previous position of neglect), possibly offering them their old lands back, they wanted to prove to the French ambassador that they hated the Americans and killed your ambassador. It could be a typical Richard twist that they ate him as a hint that you had taken their lands off them and they were starving?

    Ardagor wrote:The Americas Republic then declared war on the Caddo for this atrocity, and the French responded by declaring war on The Americas Republic to support their ally.

    I was expecting a rather small scale colonial war but the very next month the French arrived in Quebec with 200 SOL`s, 97 FRG, 109 F + cavalry/artillery. About the double of my entire armed forces. This was obviously well planned and prepared for. And a long and at times bloody war was underway.

    Unfortunately the game ended before a definite conclusion could be reached.

    I can understand why you declared war on them and what your expectations were. As you state, France must have been preparing for this for some time to get so many troops/ships into position so quickly. Seems to suggest that the 2 incidents were not related and that France did not order your ambassador to be so treated.

    That may not bring much comfort, but hopefully you had some allies who could support you - if not European then other Indian tribes?
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    Post by Ardagor Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:07 am

    I agree that it is unlikely that the French actually encouraged their ally to eat our ambassador.

    The fact remains however that an Americas Republic ambassador was killed and eaten by the Caddo, which resulted in our war with the Caddo.

    The French saw this as a brilliant chance for a casus belli against the Republic, fighting with their Caddo ally.

    Which resulted in the French going to war in the defence of cannibals, morally questionable at best.
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    Post by Deacon Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:40 pm


    Yes, it was pretty clear that French were just looking for an excuse. I didn't think a defense of cannibalism was a good one...

    I was actually very impressed by Ardagor's defense. I think the French thought they'd pick up the American colonies in a walk because of their vastly superior force. The Americans held their own very well.

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    Post by Jason2 Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:22 pm

    Agree with Deacon, Ardagor did an amazing job of resisting the French. I was always suspicious of the speed of the French attack too, seemed too quick and well planned to just be a reaction to the cannibalism.

    Was playing Denmark (no Norway) at the time and did at one stage consider coming in on the side of the Americas Republic but my position was incredibly weak (my first position and even after several years of play, had a weak economy, small army, poor navy) and I was being threatened by other players at that stage.
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:34 pm

    Have just read the August 1703 Mercurius Politicus and still baffled about who the privateering branch can issue letters of marque against Game 10 - Page 35 3465686019 or if my Character is now the Loyal Viceroy of the True Duc of Flanders or does Madrid want to cut my head off? These legal problems in G10 are tough!

    Does look like we could have another war over someome's Ambassador getting eat....and before anyone says the French are fighting on the same side as a tribe who eat the missing Genoese diplomat would like to say France declared war first ref a Papal appointed Viceroy backing Protestant rebels in France and calling our King nasty names! Louis XIV is not fat!! And my No 2 is not an Arab!!!

    Its not only Genoese diplomats who have gone missing.....were the hell have all the Genoese prizes gone?

    Perhaps if the claims of the Brotherhood of Apollo are true and the Duke of Savoy has a fake Karl dieing of the Roman Pox in his cells and the real one sailed to Vigo then the solution is that ships from Gonoa are equiped with the black magic ability to cloak and teleport across the Med since the rest of us are using normal wind power are becalmed and not going anywhere in these waters.

    At the rate this game is going odd may have to call my next two privateers The Flying Dutchman and the Black Pearl.
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    Post by Mike Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:01 pm

    You are doing a lot better than me . I mostly have no idea what is going on , even after reading the paper .
    Does that Apollo lot have any idea what they want ?
    I would just say , they might get supporters that way instead of skulking about a bit .
    Perhaps the Genoans have quickly reflagged
    to Tuscany or Spain or Portugal
    Is Viceroy of Naples in a pickle ? If he brings in Neopolitan troops does that draw in the Papal States since he is their viceroy or is he already involved since he is the Ausrtrian viceroy too .
    Except for Genoa itself most of the Genoans are being remarkably decent about the French Savoy invasion .
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:36 pm

    Mike wrote:You are doing a lot better than me . I mostly have no idea what is going on , even after reading the paper .
    Does that Apollo lot have any idea what they want ?
    I would just say , they might get supporters that way  instead of skulking about a bit .
    Perhaps the Genoans  have quickly reflagged
    to Tuscany or Spain or Portugal
    Is Viceroy of Naples in a pickle ? If he brings in Neopolitan troops does that draw in the Papal States since he is their viceroy or is he already involved since he is the Ausrtrian viceroy too .
    Except for Genoa itself most of the Genoans are being remarkably decent about the French Savoy invasion .

    Basically the sons of Apollo back a political doctrine which was popular in the early part of the C13 which holds that all authority comes from God and since the Pope is Gods deputy on earth it follows that:

    - All secular rulers and bishops should be appointed by the Pope.

    - All rulers and bishops must follow any order given to them my the Pope.

    - Rulers and bishops who do not follow Papal Orders are to be deposed.

    - The HRE is the Pope's deputy in secular matters so unless the Pope gives a superior order all the above powers are also vested in him.

    Currently the Sons of Apollo believe that the following Rulers are not fully obeying the Pope and need to be deposed & replaced:

    King Louis XIV of France (by his pro Papal twin - in an Iron Mask)

    King William of England, Scotland & Ireland - by James Stuart

    Both Kings of Poland - By ?

    The Duc of Savoy - by the HRE

    King Philip of Spain etc - By mixed bag of "Sons" like the HRE, HRE 2nd son and the Doge of Genoa.

    All in all think the program of the "Sons of Apollo" is totally logical if you want to ignore 500 years of history and take European political thinking back to 1205 such as the Papal Viceroy of Naples has just done with his declaration of a crusade against fellow Christians.

    Only two things do baffle me about the Sons of Apollo:

    1) How did they get Protestants like the Jean Cavalier and the King of Sweden to join them?

    2) Can they Swim?
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    Post by Jason2 Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:14 pm

    It does seem these Apollo folk are very naughty, trying to stir up trouble in the blessedness that is Scotland...I think I might have found some new candidates for the gallows in Grassmarket...it's going to be nothing but work work work for the The Royal Scottish Corps of Lawyers
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    Post by J Flower Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:03 am


    Find the Appolo group an interesting distraction are they actually active in the game? Sounds like they might have a lot of ( someones?) agents working for them.

    If they push the JAcobite cause too far then Scotlands legal team will definatly need to swinginot action.
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    Post by Papa Clement Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:31 pm

    Difficult for me to comment having not seen either the newspaper or a forum write-up, but if it helps ...

    Mike wrote:If Genoa brings in Neopolitan troops does that draw in the Papal States since he is their viceroy?

    As head of State, only the Pope could declare war on behalf of the Papal States. However, if Naples was attacked (the Doge of Genoa being the Papal Viceroy), then it would certainly be a good excuse for the Papal States to declare war. It does not necessarily work the other way - there may well be forces under the control of the Doge in Naples (whether Neapolitan or Genoese or whatever), so if these forces are deployed to resist an invasion of Genoa that is the Doge's business and not necessarily that of the Papacy.

    It is, of course, further complicated because some countries have refused to acknowledge the status of the Papal Fiefs, so they may choose to take an alternative view. Should they invade Naples and seek to annex it, such an annexation would be deemed illegal by the Pope in the same way that the invasions of Sardinia and Sicily are illegal.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Basically the sons of Apollo back a political doctrine which was popular in the early part of the C13 which holds that all authority comes from God and since the Pope is Gods deputy on earth it follows that:

    - All secular rulers and bishops should be appointed by the Pope.

    - All rulers and bishops must follow any order given to them my the Pope.

    - Rulers and bishops who do not follow Papal Orders are to be deposed.

    - The HRE is the Pope's deputy in secular matters so unless the Pope gives a superior order all the above powers are also vested in him.

    That was never the Catholic position! The historical position simply recognised that the sacred is always superior to the secular since the soul is eternal. Secular rulers are under an obligation to use their power in ways consistent with church teachings. No bishops may exercise their office until they receive the pallium from the Pope. The Holy Roman Emperor does have additional responsibilities, but he is not the Pope's 'deputy'!

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Currently the Sons of Apollo believe that the following Rulers are not fully obeying the Pope and need to be deposed & replaced:

    King Louis XIV of France (by his pro Papal twin - in an Iron Mask)

    King Louis has failed to respect the Papal Judgement he asked for, failed to respect the Papal Fiefs and made (though not necessarily declared) war on Catholic rulers.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:King William of England, Scotland & Ireland - by James Stuart

    The Pope still views King James as the legitimate King of England, Ireland and Scotland. This does not mean he had anything personal against Stadtholder William (other than him being a Calvinist heretic).

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Both Kings of Poland - By ?

    The Pope never made a decision about Poland or the legitimacy of any ruler of those lands, probably because he was as confused as anyone else about what was going on there.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:The Duc of Savoy - by the HRE

    The ex-duke of Savoy, being an excommunicant, is deemed to have removed himself. The Pope did not determine who his replacement should be, nor could he whilst there was still a chance the former duke would repent and be readmitted to the Church.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:King Philip of Spain etc - By mixed bag of "Sons" like the HRE, HRE 2nd son and the Doge of Genoa.

    Since there is no King Philip of Spain, only King Carl, the Brotherhood of Apollo have probably made their own opinion up about that.

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Only two things do baffle me about the Sons of Apollo:

    1) How did they get Protestants like the Jean Cavalier and the King of Sweden to join them?

    2) Can they Swim?

    In comparison to the position adopted by 'team France', the "Sons of Apollo" may well have a coherent program, but one thing I do agree with Stuart about is that it seems strange that they are able to appeal to both Catholics and Protestants. Whoever is playing them seems to be doing very well at causing trouble.
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    Post by Jason2 Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:56 pm

    J Flower wrote:
    Find the Appolo group an interesting distraction are they actually active in the game?  Sounds like they might have a lot of ( someones?) agents working for them.

    If they push the JAcobite cause too far then Scotlands legal team will definatly need to swinginot action.

    I really can't decide! It does feel a bit like it could be someone doing a Swashbuckler with them? I suppose it could be agents but if so, who is behind it, so far they seem to be attacking everyone and I do mean that. They seem to have some involvement in the French revolts, are trying to cause a Jacobite uprising in Scotland, doing something in Poland as well as stirring in Spain, no one player seems to benefit from their actions...

    ....unless, unless...

    ...hmmm..*looks at newspaper, looks at maps...considers non-European active positions..."...hmmm.....
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:36 pm

    Jason2 wrote:
    J Flower wrote:
    Find the Appolo group an interesting distraction are they actually active in the game?  Sounds like they might have a lot of ( someones?) agents working for them.

    If they push the JAcobite cause too far then Scotlands legal team will definatly need to swinginot action.

    I really can't decide!  It does feel a bit like it could be someone doing a Swashbuckler with them?  I suppose it could be agents but if so, who is behind it, so far they seem to be attacking everyone and I do mean that.  They seem to have some involvement in the French revolts, are trying to cause a Jacobite uprising in Scotland, doing something in Poland as well as stirring in Spain, no one player seems to benefit from their actions...

    ....unless, unless...

    ...hmmm..*looks at newspaper, looks at maps...considers non-European active positions..."...hmmm.....

    Still think Sons of Apollo = Secret Service of Genoa..........but if in doubt put the blame on Venice, the Janissary Corp, or Lord Fong.
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    Post by Jason2 Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:02 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:
    Jason2 wrote:
    J Flower wrote:
    Find the Appolo group an interesting distraction are they actually active in the game?  Sounds like they might have a lot of ( someones?) agents working for them.

    If they push the JAcobite cause too far then Scotlands legal team will definatly need to swinginot action.

    I really can't decide!  It does feel a bit like it could be someone doing a Swashbuckler with them?  I suppose it could be agents but if so, who is behind it, so far they seem to be attacking everyone and I do mean that.  They seem to have some involvement in the French revolts, are trying to cause a Jacobite uprising in Scotland, doing something in Poland as well as stirring in Spain, no one player seems to benefit from their actions...

    ....unless, unless...

    ...hmmm..*looks at newspaper, looks at maps...considers non-European active positions..."...hmmm.....

    Still think Sons of Apollo = Secret Service of Genoa..........but if in doubt put the blame on Venice, the Janissary Corp, or Lord Fong.

    Hmmm, it does feel like a Lord Fong but in G9, there he's an evil devious one who would do this...but G10 Lord Fong seems quite a nice chap who wouldn't even consider cutting bits off foreign merchants, let alone doing the Apollo thing...

    But the Janissary, that makes sense...cause complete disunity before they burn Rome and Vienna to the ground...
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    Post by Jason2 Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:08 pm

    Papa Clement wrote:
    In comparison to the position adopted by 'team France', the "Sons of Apollo" may well have a coherent program, but one thing I do agree with Stuart about is that it seems strange that they are able to appeal to both Catholics and Protestants.  Whoever is playing them seems to be doing very well at causing trouble.

    I wonder if we are looking at this the wrong way? and it comes back to my thoughts on this being a Swashbuckler thing, what if it is not someone playing it from a religious point of view but as some sort of "Illuminati" position (and as a 21st C interpretation of the Illuminati)?

    Who is evil and devious and trying to upset the in-game apple cart? Suspect
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:18 pm

    [quote="Jason2"]
    Papa Clement wrote:

    Who is evil and devious and trying to upset the in-game apple cart? Suspect


    Scots lawyers trying to drum up business?
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    Post by J Flower Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:24 pm

    Think they are a bunch of devious gits who should all be fed to the goats.

    looking back, they seemed ot have started out as an anti French group, but have Spread their actions wider.

    Not sure why Gneoa wants ot get the Jacobites going, or maybe it was/is a Papal plot although that player has left & they still seem to be doing their meetings.

    Have no idea how Swashbuckler game actually works so can't really say if a solo Player has set up a secret society, if they have then it could be an interesting chase.

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