Game 10

I don't really think that the Sons of Apollo have actually done anything. A lot of hot air, but not actually done anything. If they have I missed it. I think it is just a player writing stuff and swirling the game around. Basically no biggie. No crown is going to fall because of a few articles.
It is probable that the same player behind them has been undertaking other activities, such as causing rebellions but at worst for France it is an inconvenience and unlikely to change policy or diplomatic positions. It all adds to the game.

Had been wondering if The Apollo stuff was a clever setup job by someone.

Afterall the rebels who appeared & allowed claims that & outside power was running them enabled a beleivable reason for some countries to go ot war. Same rebels are now looking for peace. Could be they have served their purpose?

who would benefit most from the Jacobites raisng a standard in Scotland?

As Basileus points out they haven't actually done much.( That I know of) So I may well be barking up the wrong tree completly.

This is not ment as an accusation more as an observation, so please don't threaten to rip my arms off & beat me to death with the soggy ends

J Flower wrote:Had been wondering if The Apollo stuff was a clever setup job by someone.

Afterall the rebels who appeared & allowed claims that & outside power was running them enabled a beleivable reason for some countries to go ot war. Same rebels are now looking for peace. Could be they have served their purpose?

who would benefit most from the Jacobites raisng a standard in Scotland?

As Basileus points out they haven't actually done much.( That I know of)  So I may well be barking up the wrong tree completly.

This is not ment as an accusation more as an observation, so please don't threaten to rip my arms off & beat me to death with the soggy ends

Can I save the threat to rip of arms and beat them to death with the soggy end for Germans in the Rome is burning campaign?

Or is this threat too soft and cuddly for a hard core Roman?

I think Kerensky is having too much fun with his life and should stop at once

Stuart, as to honour in G10, train some lawyers, it's the only way to boost your honour...honest

I've written elsewhere about how to gain honour. I view it sort of as the reward currency for roleplaying. You need to consistently do things on turns to build it. It's a long slog, and rarely can you make much headway on any one turn.

@ Stuart
In answer to your honour queries, it helps being on the side of angels, but you also need to do it with flair & panache. I hear you are very well placed in G7, so maybe your heart is really with the Hapsburgs?
@ Jayson
Will try my best to reign it in.
@ Deacon
A good write up. It gave me a real solid understanding on how it works (as best we can estimate). Thank You.

Kerensky wrote:@ Stuart
In answer to your honour queries, it helps being on the side of angels, but you also need to do it with flair & panache. I hear you are very well placed in G7, so maybe your heart is really with the Hapsburgs?
@ Jayson
Will try my best to reign it in.
@ Deacon
A good write up. It gave me a real solid understanding on how it works (as best we can estimate). Thank You.

I actually like to mix things up a bit and play from both sides of the hill so I have played Hapsburg Spain in G7 and on the Bourbon side in G10. The question of Corsairs help? or liability? to the Bourbon cause is another issue.

Have also played Hapsburg Austria and an Ottoman in earlier games.

Both the Hapsburgs positions have done fairly well honour wise (touch over 30) but if you think honour scores reflect were my heart is that would put it either on the Emerald pasture horse race track just outside Constantinople or somewhere in the mountains of Albania since at one stage after the fall of Vienna the Rumelian honour score was over 50.

Pity I had to spend most of this saved up honour on fighting my true foe in G2 - The Janissary Corp !!!

Ref earlier comments about going full "James Stuart" this is not saying James Stuart in G7 has been that bloody. This was rather saying both James Stuart & my Layerbey of Rumelia did not a adopt the soft and fluffy approach to their opposition.

Like to think even Richard was a bit taken aback when the the Bank of England got abolished and the house of commons got turned into a park and then same applied on getting orders to massacre the Janissary Corp about a hundred years early. Though following the murder of James II and Mustapha Kruppa he may have expected something hard line from the players in question.

Have been wondering about how next G10 will turn out, seems that there are a few points outstanding.

It seems Karl has lost his way, but he is still recognised by the head of the Catholic Church in game as the king of Spain. Will the Cardinal in Madrid go against the Popes wishes & name someone else? Or is it actually the real Karl at all?

What happens if Karl dies?
Will it let Pedro back in?
If Philip is crowned will the Maritime powers feel betrayed & threatened by the combined naval power of Franco-Spain & declare war on someone?

Should Karl be released, travel to Madrid & be accepted as King( by the new player) then will Spain accept the loss of Flanders & Milan which would could bring the war to an end.

What is the current form of address for Savoy? " The man formally known as Duke?"
Who can claim the Iron Crown of Lombardy?

If the Tsar marries an Austrian Arch Duchess will it mean Russians in Flanders?

Will the new Princes in the Heiliges Romanisches Reich flock to the banners of their Kaiser , to try & Hold back the French Army of the Rhine.

J Flower wrote:

If Philip is crowned will the Maritime powers feel betrayed & threatened by the combined naval power of Franco-Spain & declare war on someone?  

What?  That would be a treaty violation and so a legal matter.

I'd send in that most feared of regiments, the Royal Scots Lawyers.  They will issue so many writs and summons the Franco-Spanish forces will be stuck in barracks and ports trying to deal with the paperwork...by the time it's all sorted, they will be serving in Scramble!

Jason2 wrote:

J Flower wrote:

If Philip is crowned will the Maritime powers feel betrayed & threatened by the combined naval power of Franco-Spain & declare war on someone?  

What?  That would be a treaty violation and so a legal matter.

I'd send in that most feared of regiments, the Royal Scots Lawyers.  They will issue so many writs and summons the Franco-Spanish forces will be stuck in barracks and ports trying to deal with the paperwork...by the time it's all sorted, they will be serving in Scramble!

Have the Spanish actually signed a treaty with Scotland !!!!!? And what does it say about who they are going to Crown?

If Charles von Hapburg is Charles von Hapsburg does not recover from the very best Savoyard medical treatment for his Roman Pox are Scots lawyers recommending to their Spanish client that they:

a) Declare an elective monarchy on the Polish model
b) Find a double of Charles and hope no one notices
c) Have words with Carlos II widow about a "miracle baby"
d) Declare a Republic

Assume that the Scots legal opinion will include the usual exclusion of any liability for High Treason.

J Flower wrote:Have been wondering about how next G10 will turn out, seems that there are a few points outstanding.

Since I am no longer in G10, I can perhaps provide an unbiased legal opinion on how this fits in with the judgement:

J Flower wrote:
It seems Karl has lost his way, but he is still recognised by the head of the Catholic Church in game as the king of Spain. Will the Cardinal in Madrid go against the Popes wishes & name someone else? Or is it actually the real Karl at all?

No matter what happens to him, King Karl (or Carlos) is recognised by the Church and many other rulers as King of Spain. If Cardinal P goes against the Pope then he is automatically stripped of his rank which would also cost him his position as 1st minister (or whatever the title is) of Spain. Since (I understand) King Karl is currently languishing in a Savoy torture chamber I don't see how Cardinal P could justify his treachery by claiming he is trying to save King Karl's life. Spain would turn on him and the chaos would leave even more of a mess.

If the real King Karl is actually in Madrid then I guess the ex-Duke of Savoy will be somewhat embarrassed. It would be rather convenient if he had caught a double, but I'm sure that within a few months this will be sorted out one way or another anyway - Emperor Leopold should be able to recognise his own son and the Pope would certainly not be party to any conspiracy of swapping a monarch. There is also the obvious: King Karl was crowned by the Pope, so any usurper pretending to be King Karl in Madrid, would not be King.

J Flower wrote:What happens if Karl dies?

Looks like the succession will continue to be argued over, although given King Karl will have been killed at the hands of Savoy, it is highly unlikely that France will escape its share of the blame. Thus I would be amazed if any country (except Savoy) would then accept a Bourbon candidate for the crown of Spain.

If this scenario did play out and there was sufficient clamour for another Papal judgement then I may just have to ask to come back to deliver another judgement. Is that really what you all want?

J Flower wrote:Will it let Pedro back in?

That would depend on the next judgement, but unless something significant has changed, I suspect the same concerns about stability and the threat of Portugal being attacked/invaded by France would apply.

J Flower wrote:If Philip is crowned will the Maritime powers feel betrayed & threatened by the combined naval power of Franco-Spain & declare war on someone?

Nobody in authority will crown Philip - if any Cardinal did (including those who claim to be from the soon to be discredited/abolished Galician church) - they would cease to be recognised by the Catholic Church so the coronation would be invalidated.

As to the response by the Maritime powers, that really is up to them. It has long seemed strange to me that they have stepped back and allowed team France to attack anyone they pleased and done nothing, but since from the Papal viewpoint they are all protestants, the Church is unlikely to expect a coherent logical argument from them.

J Flower wrote:Should Karl be released, travel to Madrid & be accepted as King( by the new player) then will Spain accept the loss of Flanders & Milan which would could bring the war to an end.

The loss of Flanders and Milan (to Austria), and the Papal fiefs of Sardinia, Sicily, Naples (to the Papal States) are a consequence of the death of King Carlos, not the acceptance of King Karl.

As I understand it the war is not between Austria and Spain, but France/Savoy/Corsairs and Spain(+anyone else who happens to have declared war since I left).

Spain cannot buy off France by agreeing to France having Flanders and Milan because they are no longer Spain's to give away.

And given how things have worked out, if any Holy Roman Emperor simply walked away from French annexation of Imperial territory then his Imperial authority would evaporate. France has put him into a position where he is obliged to fight. Is this unfair on Austria - quite probably. But then France should not have been goaded into pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable by his chums. If you keep punching someone then at some point they will turn round and punch you back. Credit to Austria for taking the time to build up a large enough coalition to do serious damage to France when the fighting starts.

J Flower wrote:What is the current form of address for Savoy? " The man formally known as Duke?"
Who can claim the Iron Crown of Lombardy?

To the first of these, I refer you to a previous post. The Iron Crown of Lombardy is a much more interesting question. My initial understanding is that the crown passed to the Hapsburgs (as Holy Roman Emperors), but by the Treaty of Westphalia no Holy Roman Emperor actually used the title. What then happens to a defunct title/crown will take a lot more research, but since Italy is now divided between Genoa (a republic), Venice (a republic), the Papal States (a theocracy, including Naples, Sicily, Sardinia), Tuscany (a Grand Duchy, but Imperial fief), and Milan (a Duchy, but Imperial fief), I suspect that the strongest claim to the title would remain with the Hapsburgs.

J Flower wrote:If the Tsar marries an Austrian Arch Duchess will it mean Russians in Flanders?

That's a new one. I'd be surprised if a Catholic Austrian marries an Orthodox Tsar, but stranger things have happened. If that is the price of receiving Russian backing to fight France then it looks like the odds are being weighted heavily in favour of Austria.

J Flower wrote:Will the new Princes in the Heiliges Romanisches Reich flock to the banners of their Kaiser, to try & Hold back the French Army of the Rhine.

If they don't then they can't really object when France tries to annex them one by one. After all, if you are in the Empire you have responsibilities to back the Emperor as well as the right to call upon his support.

Hope all this helps.

@ Stuart
I can see the appeal of the Ottomans, I really can. I think I would enjoy playing my own religion, as well as completing the unfinished conquest of Europe. Better late than never, as the old saying goes. If there is ever a G11 (or we are not already playing in the same game for a year), give me a shout. I would enjoy an Ottoman team position.

On G10, chin up & do not despair. Keep plugging away, I am sure it will eventually pay off for you chaps.

@ JFlower & Jason2. I agree. Many questions. Maybe a few answers in next months turn. The impeccably well dressed & spirited philanderer of Genoa & Naples is looking forward to it, or so I have heard...

Kerensky wrote:@ Stuart
I can see the appeal of the Ottomans, I really can. I think I would enjoy playing my own religion, as well as completing the unfinished conquest of Europe. Better late than never, as the old saying goes. If there is ever a G11 (or we are not already playing in the same game for a year), give me a shout. I would enjoy an Ottoman team position.

On G10, chin up & do not despair. Keep plugging away, I am sure it will eventually pay off for you chaps.

@ JFlower & Jason2. I agree. Many questions. Maybe a few answers in next months turn. The impeccably well dressed & spirited philanderer of Genoa & Naples is looking forward to it, or so I have heard...

So does this mean we can expect some interesting actions from a certain gentleman of Genoa?

Meanwhile, and I don't think it will harm game play by saying this, I am adding a new dimension to the game...yes, I am opening a golf course in Auld Reekie this turn...must remember to make sure it has a club house...

I think that it is important that the forum doesn’t breach the rules set on it by Richard. That is - becoming a replacement of game diplomacy. But I can say, because this is how it is - France is not at war with Spain. France has no intention of being at war with Spain. Logically why would Spain want to be at war with france - it has nothing to gain. Why go to war to give Flanders and Milan to Austria?
Opinion should not be mistaken for how things are.

Basileus I fully agree with you about the forum not being used as a replacement for in game diplomacy, & if you feel my post led to it becoming so then I'm sorry it wasn't deliberate I'll try & keep a better grip on things in the future.

SORRY!

I'm still convinced all this is the result of the actions of Rozwi agents and any turn now, just as Europe plunges itself into war because of the mayor's ear being nailed to a door, a vast host will emerge from Africa to overwhelm us all...

...oh, laugh now...

J Flower wrote:Basileus I fully agree with you about the forum not being used as a replacement for in game diplomacy, & if you feel my post led to it becoming so then I'm sorry it wasn't deliberate I'll try & keep a better grip on things in the future.

SORRY!

I don't think you have anything to apologise for, JFlower. Since when has speculation on a range of possible scenarios been out-of-game-diplomacy any more than turn summaries which reflect a particular viewpoint?

The way to ensure nothing on the forum affects what happens in the game is to engage in regular in-game diplomacy by writing letters, something team France has not generally bothered to do.

As to Basileus' comments about not being at war with Spain, I don't know whether this is correct or not. As a non player I am certainly not breaking any forum rules by giving my opinion on any post. I do recall, though, that in G10 France (and her allies) have repeatedly attacked/invaded/annexed lands without a formal declaration of war. And since you have previously refused to accept Papal rule of Sicily, contending that it was part of Spain, it looks to me as though by your own pronouncements by invading Sicily you have indeed committed an act of war upon Spain.

As a non player, what I think, of course, doesn't matter - you can always clarify what you have done in game where it does matter. So you really have nothing to be upset about. At least nothing which you did not contribute to, yourself.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Jason2 wrote:

J Flower wrote:

If Philip is crowned will the Maritime powers feel betrayed & threatened by the combined naval power of Franco-Spain & declare war on someone?  

What?  That would be a treaty violation and so a legal matter.

I'd send in that most feared of regiments, the Royal Scots Lawyers.  They will issue so many writs and summons the Franco-Spanish forces will be stuck in barracks and ports trying to deal with the paperwork...by the time it's all sorted, they will be serving in Scramble!

Have the Spanish actually signed a treaty with Scotland !!!!!?  And what does it say about who they are going to Crown?

If Charles von Hapburg is Charles von Hapsburg does not recover from the very best Savoyard medical treatment for his Roman Pox are Scots lawyers recommending to their Spanish client that they:

a) Declare an elective monarchy on the Polish model  
b) Find a double of Charles and hope no one notices
c) Have words with Carlos II widow about a "miracle baby"
d) Declare a Republic

Assume that the Scots legal opinion will include the usual exclusion of any liability for High Treason.

Tsk tsk Mr B, there are some bits of paper floating around thta have the signature of someone who is King of England, Ireland and Scotland...and as good loyal subjects of that man...

I do feel it would be inappropriate of me to reveal the advice Scottish lawyers are giving, client confidentiality you know, but I think it is breaking no confidences to say it always ends with "...oh...and hang all pirates"

Jason2 wrote:I do feel it would be inappropriate of me to reveal the advice Scottish lawyers are giving, client confidentiality you know, but I think it is breaking no confidences to say it always ends with "...oh...and hang all pirates"

Sounds fair to me!

About a year before you joined G10 Papa, me and Stuart had quite a lively (but very good natured) feud on this

He said "privateer", I said "pirate...and hang them"

So lets's call the whole thing off

Jason2 wrote:About a year before you joined G10 Papa, me and Stuart had quite a lively (but very good natured) feud on this

He said "privateer", I said "pirate...and hang them"

I tend to agree with you. There is a fine distinction, which is blurred when the 'privateer' is sailing under the protection of a faction which is really a front paid for by another 3rd party who is just trying to stir up trouble. And in some games there is an awful lot of trouble being stirred up.

I know my approach in G7 isn't to everyone's tastes, but when it comes to pirates/privateers it saves a lot of time if you hang them first and then sort out the legal consequences later.

With me and Stuart, he (and quite fairly) felt he had the letters so he and his ships were privateers...I deliberately took the opposite view and given the raids his ships were doing that were close to Scottish waters my stance made sense.

It was also quite good fun. I could write some lovely speeches being rude about privateers and Stuart could write some great pieces in his defence.

Jason2 wrote:With me and Stuart, he (and quite fairly) felt he had the letters so he and his ships were privateers...I deliberately took the opposite view and given the raids his ships were doing that were close to Scottish waters my stance made sense.

It was also quite good fun. I could write some lovely speeches being rude about privateers and Stuart could write some great pieces in his defence.

Stuart's legal defences are always amusing - he does righteous indignation very well, but tends to fall down on the facts.

Without knowing more, I think the general principle is that if someone is breaking the law in your waters, then you can arrest and charge them. If you are responsible (or deemed to be responsible) for policing a stretch of international waters then you still have a strong case for interfering. And of course if you are English and every pirate is against you or your enemy is known for using false flags, you can at the very least stop/search and/or impound just about any ships, releasing those who are proved to be legitimate traders. In real life the world would applaud such actions, but for some reason in G7 those with pro-Spanish leanings tend not to. Which is in itself highly suspicious.

I imagine Scottish lawyers have found similar sentiments expressed in G10 by those with pro-French leanings, and will draw their own conclusions.

DIPLOMACY - remind me again is that the bit were you ask for a letter of Marque? Or the bit were you try and convince a Prize Court that you are a nice legal Privateer and not a nasty Pirate!

I tend to think the difference between Piracy and Privateering is about 30% in sale prices plus avoiding the risk of getting hung in your home country.

A bit like tax collection & Highway robbery

Either way you loose your money

although both of the above have a chance of getting lynched