Game 10

Is it Carlos or Karl in Spain now? maybe he should simply be Karlos to avoid confusion. Although Spain seems a touch confusing Doge of Genoa is now Prime minister,for Karl von Hapsburg.Whilst Cardinal Portocarreo is regent( Can you have a Regent when king is of age? ) For Carlos von Hapsburg, have I got that right?

King of Spain seems to have been taken prisoner by Savoy, but technically are they at war? As HRE is now at war wit hFrance & Savoy, but Spain /& by default its king are not.

All this thinking is making my teeth hurt, so I best stop, answers on the back of a postage stamp please.

Mike wrote:2 kings , 1 regent and one chief Secretary . Thought I had got the hang of this then ....
Looks like Spain is back ... thank goodness . Could do with the Pope telling everyone what to do though .

Not to mention a Viceroy of Naples (for King Carlos), a Viceroy of Milan (for King Phillip), a Viceroy of Flanders (for King Phillip) and one Claude de Forbin King Phillip Minister of Marine & Colonies.

Think to make things a bit more symetric we need to remove one Regent since its just stupid having a Regent when both Kings are adults (or is it three Kings if Portugal is included?) are add in a 2nd Pope.

I think a Regent can also be for an absent king as well as an underage one.

Must admit I am completely confused by who is now who in Spain. At least we have an active Spain again! I suppose Karl/Carlos is under arrest because he is Austrian (even if King of Spain) and they are at war with Savoy? Or is it "protective custody", young noble wandering through a war zone? Maybe it's yet another case for my Scottish lawyers to resolve?

Jason2 wrote:I think a Regent can also be for an absent king as well as an underage one.

Must admit I am completely confused by who is now who in Spain.  At least we have an active Spain again!  I suppose Karl/Carlos is under arrest because he is Austrian (even if King of Spain) and they are at war with Savoy?  Or is it "protective custody", young noble wandering through a war zone?  Maybe it's yet another case for my Scottish lawyers to resolve?

Putting to one side Charles von Hapsburg claim to be King of Spain, Duke of Milan, King of Naples etc he is without doubt a Prince of the House of Austria and holds of post of Col in chief of several Austrian Regiments when he was found looking round the the territory of the Duc of Savoy. A Duc who is now under the Imperial ban of the HRE and in theory at war with all members of the HRE.

Think the key legal question which Scots lawyers need to resolve is:

a) Had Charles von Hapsburg asked or and been issued a passport to cross Savoy?

if he did not have a passport

b) Was Charles von Hapsburg in Military Uniform in which case he is a POW

or

c) Was he in Civilian clothing............in which case he is a ...........what is the punishment for spying in Savoy?

Oddly John Churchill had much the same problem early in the historic war of the Spanish Succession. When at the end of a campaign season the party he was with (who all had the correct passports) got stopped by a French patrol. Fortunately, a Irish Commander in French service made a "stupid" mistake and accepted a passport in the name of Churchill which was both out of date and made out to the other Churchill brother.

Said Irish commander joined the allies shortly after and got a promotion and seemed fairly flush with cash so perhaps it was less a stupid mistake and more a paid for one.

Naturally I am sure Scots Lawyers would never stoop to such underhand tactics to get a client off.

Mr Rebus, that renowned Scottish Lawyer, has read the report in the paper and states that based on the limited evidence given to him, he assumes that the use of the phrase "...four men travelled incognito"  and that the Savoy dragoons initially were simply checking the travellers were not a threat to Savoy, would suggest the party were not in military uniform (if they were in military uniform, whether they were a threat would have been relatively clear) and therefore dressed in civilian clothing.  

However he does suggest that being in civilian clothing in a war zone does not immediately imply one is a spy, they could "simply" be travellers (even if ones from a hostile nation).  As Mr Rebus pointed out, in a Scottish court, one would need to present evidence that they had undertaken spying or were planning to, for them to be found guilty of the crime.  The presumption would not be sufficient to find them guilty.  Of course Mr Rebus does recognise that some nations may not have such a robust legal system, a matter of sadness for him.  Perhaps I should offer to send a legal mission, led by Mr Rebus, to Savoy to oversee the matter in a neutral and fair manner?  

Mr Rebus has suggested that Carlos could be found guilty of being foolish in a war zone, due to his manner of travel, but he is not sure that death (the usual punishment for spying) is an appropriate punishment.

"Mr Rebus has suggested that Carlos could be found guilty of being foolish in a war zone, due to his manner of travel, but he is not sure that death (the usual punishment for spying) is an appropriate punishment."

Time to put him in the comfy chair & poke him with the soft cushions I suspect, until he confesses to foolish behaviour,

As to the appropriate punishment, somrthing with a feather duster would seem to fit the bill.

Possibly a bucket of whitewash down his trousers, followed by a salvo of custard pies at close range.


Maybe the Apollo Assc, will get hold of him for one of their nightly rituals.......

Why on earth not just nip on an English , Dutch or even Papal Tuscany or Portuguese ship . Unless it is a decoy ... bom bom bom

Mike wrote:Why on earth not just nip on an English , Dutch or even Papal Tuscany or Portuguese ship . Unless it is a decoy ... bom bom bom

I did wonder why he didn't go by ship...possibly a badly-worded order that didn't say "go by ship" or "avoid enemy territory"?

Jason2 wrote:

Mike wrote:Why on earth not just nip on an English , Dutch or even Papal Tuscany or Portuguese ship . Unless it is a decoy ... bom bom bom

I did wonder why he didn't go by ship...possibly a badly-worded order that didn't say "go by ship" or "avoid enemy territory"?

Maybe he had no choice. Imagine arriving in Protestant ( Heretic?) Ship from England or UDP, hardly a good way to make friends & influence people in Spain.

Portugese captains may be a bit put out & not wnat ot take on board someone who just shouldered their kin gout of the throne room in Madrid.

Papal navy if it has one, may have been an option, but alos runs the risk of bady parts being nailed ot the mast if the Corsairs tip up.

Tuscany would have worked but apparently both of their war canoes are currently in drydock having their bottoms scrubed of barnacles.

In the past Charles von Hapsburg has gone to & from Spain by land without any trouble but has not risked water. Perhaps he suffers from sea sickness or has a fear of North Africa corsairs and the like but clearly he is happier on land and is no seafarer.

Cardinal Portocarrero went to Italy by sea but when he wanted to do a moonlight flit back to Madrid he also went via Frence and land.

From a security point of view if you are being watched a few riders can slip away in the night a lot easier than a ship can take on passengers and crew and set sail (normally on known tides and on routes) so going by land has a degree of logic.

Personally I suspect that a dashing ride across hostile territory to claim a crown (and a bride?) rather than hiding behind a English or a Dutch flag has all the hallmarks of what the Viceroy of Naples would advise.

The question now is does the Emperor care enough about his 2nd son to offer terms to get him back? Or can the dashing and heroic Doge of Genoa seduce a goal keepers daughter and whisk Charles away in the dead of night? Or arrange some other form of jail break?

The thing about 2nd sons is they are the spare, for emergencies and disasters, so if you feel secure with your first-born you might not be too fussed on their fate.

Maybe this will be what it takes to rouse the Spanish, afterall their (maybe) king has been seized by the foul Savoyards. Will their empire strike back? Possibly they may take a slightly left-field approach and rather than invade Savoy, send troops to aid the Protestant rebels against the French allies of Savoy? No need to mass an invasion fleet and all that entails, just a short hike over some hills and Southern France is at your mercy...

Or the Pope could make the supreme gesture and offer to trade himself for Carlos? A noble gesture with a good chance of martyrdom attached so should appeal to a Catholic priest, esp if Savoy decides to revive some good old-fashioned Roman customs and imports some lions...

Jason2 wrote:Or the Pope could make the supreme gesture and offer to trade himself for Carlos? A noble gesture with a good chance of martyrdom attached so should appeal to a Catholic priest, esp if Savoy decides to revive some good old-fashioned Roman customs and imports some lions...

As a non-player I have to go by comments on here so will probably have missed some background. Martyrdom isn't martyrdom if it is sought or if it has a reasonable likelihood of occurring.

One recent example that comes to mind is that of St.Maximilian Kolbe who volunteered to take the place of another prisoner at Auschwitz. Whilst his self-sacrifice was heroic, the commission set up by Pope John Paul II to examine his case concluded he was not killed out of hatred of the faith, but as a result of his charity towards another. Pope John Paul II overruled this on the broader grounds that the Nazi attack on categories of humanity was inherently a hatred of Christianity and Fr.Kolbe was canonized in 1982.

Catholics were, of course, not the only clergy to be persecuted at that time. The letters of Dietrich Bonhoeffer are particularly interesting. Before the Reformation the Pope acted to constrain some of the more violent and authoritarian instincts of rulers. It is one of the problems of protestant countries that in having rejected Papal authority they require the State to take on the role of providing spiritual guidance, imposing their chosen solution with the power of the state. Inevitably this leads to far worse abuses and a breakdown of the checks and balances inherent in the Catholic system. When the state turns to pure evil (as it did under the Nazis) this creates an impossible dilemma for protestants. Some will no doubt follow their masters, deluding themselves into thinking they were only following orders. But over time that excuse seems to be shown for what it is.

Jason2 wrote:The thing about 2nd sons is they are the spare, for emergencies and disasters, so if you feel secure with your first-born you might not be too fussed on their fate.  

Maybe this will be what it takes to rouse the Spanish, afterall their (maybe) king has been seized by the foul Savoyards.  Will their empire strike back?  Possibly they may take a slightly left-field approach and rather than invade Savoy, send troops to aid the Protestant rebels against the French allies of Savoy?  No need to mass an invasion fleet and all that entails, just a short hike over some hills and Southern France is at your mercy...

Or the Pope could make the supreme gesture and offer to trade himself for Carlos?  A noble gesture with a good chance of martyrdom attached so should appeal to a Catholic priest, esp if Savoy decides to revive some good old-fashioned Roman customs and imports some lions...

If a government in Madrid gets active again surely 2nd heirs are a bit like 2nd sons.......so why would Spain concern itself that much about a   2nd legitimate heir to the throne being in a Savoyard cell when it has a perfectly good no 1 heir in Philip of Anjou enjoying the sunshine in Sicily with his charming and delightfull mistress?

Ok, Ok so you might not like Philip of Anjou family or the company he keeps and be concerned about being blamed for upsetting the balance of power in Europe.  In which case surely asking Lisbon over a nice glass of port or sherry if they want to share a King is a lot nicer than trying to either ransom a King from the Duc of Savoy or trying to invade Savoy either from the sea or via Genoa.

As or the proposal to apply pressure on the King of France - to apply pressure on the Duc of Savoy to free his captive - by an invasion of France aiming to link up with Protestant rebels!?????? This seems advise from a man who elsewhere claims his troops are unable to get out of bed without picking up sickness levels and to be based on Scots military experience were you just hop over a unmanned wall built by the Romans, live off the land and hope to meet up with allies and hope it all ends in a Marston Moor and not in a Floddon Field.

As someone who has now lead two Spanish Invasions of France (in G7) its not that easy!  Even if the French are busy elsewhere which is my favourite invasion times.  For starters you need to bring supplies in either by Sea or Land or your Army starves and runs out of gun powder.  Which means you need to capture a port or clear your path of all those nasty French fortresses which if left untaken will cut your lines of supply and communication.  

To reclaim Perpignan for Spain in G7 I needed to defeat a French Army covering the fortress, then use a covering force with a couple of scouting forces, a Siege Army inc masses of heavy artillery and engineers and two re-supply convoy's.  The last one of which also brought in crews for 100FC to help hold the place.  In total I used 90,000 tons of grain and spent a fortune on gunpowder a bonus payments to troops........than had to give the blasted place back to free a allied Army which had decided to blunder into the heart of France without thinking that much about supplies!  Not that I am at all bitter

As last time I looked the Spanish Army in G10 was not as good as the Spanish Army in G7 which is better balanced and equiped, has full grain silo's, full magazines, full warchests and knows who its adored and beloved King is. Scots legal advise for G10 may be sound but Scots military advise I really do have doubts about!

However, I do like the idea of the Duc of Savoy swapping Charles for the Imperial Lawyer in Rome and perhaps the viceroy in Naples for Charles von Hapsburg.  But I suspect he is going to want a ransom in more material things than Lion food.  Bit like the price both the  French and the English have in the past paid to get captured kings back from Dukes of Austria.

I suspect there would be a serious honour penalty for any nation abandoning its king (2nd son or 22nd son, doesn't really matter). Same might go for any relatives, and the Hapsburgs have rather a lot of them. I think somewhere in the rules it says that the loss of your character leads to significant honour loss and chaos over a long period - in Spain's case of course the chaos predates this latest event, but even if the player's character isn't the king, I would still consider there would be a similarly negative impact which is not what any new player needs.

Unless there was a declaration of war this month between Savoy and Spain, then even arresting King Carlos is likely to hit Savoy's honour - monarchs, diplomats and high ranking nobles are normally permitted to travel without fear of being arrested or held as hostages. Rather than ransoming a captured King, it is more likely to bring diplomatic/honour benefits for Savoy if the ex-Duke released him. Perhaps as a reward King Carlos could give him a suitable honour: Knight of the Royal Water Closet? At least he could then claim to be a gentleman and hope one day for re-admittance into society.

I'm sure Emperors, Kings and Princes would never spy, they are above all that!    

I would expect Savoy's honour to suffer for every month King Carlos is held hostage. If Spain is active, Cardinal Portocarrero will issue a statement.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Scots legal advise for G10 may be sound but Scots military advise I really do have doubts about!

However, I do like the idea of the Duc of Savoy swapping Charles for the Imperial Lawyer in Rome and perhaps the viceroy in Naples for Charles von Hapsburg.  But I suspect he is going to want a ransom in more material things than Lion food.  Bit like the price both the  French and the English have in the past paid to get captured kings back from Dukes of Austria.

You see Stuart, there are things we can agree on in G10-Scots legal advice is excellent, Scots military advice needs to be taken with a very large wee dram

I do think however asking for the viceroy as well as the priest in Rome is a bit excessive, Carlos is worth a pope but not a pope plus 10%

Come back and start telling everybody what to do ... We miss the grumpy Pope .

Come back and start telling everybody what to do ... We miss the grumpy Pope .

Mike wrote:Come back and start telling everybody what to do ... We miss the grumpy Pope .

Grumpy?

Mike wrote:Come back and start telling everybody what to do ... We miss the grumpy Pope .

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!

There is only ONE Grumpy Pope!

Now that I like, Jason2!

I still can't work out how to post pictures otherwise I could send one of my cat.

It is surprisingly complicated but if you look at the various buttons at the top of the reply section, there is one called "host an image", you can then use that to upload an image from your computer (the process is not obvious). It doesn't feel like it is going to work but it does.

Thanks Jason2, it kept freezing on me when I tried to do it, but we will see if this works:





It does!

This was taken a couple of months ago so he is a bit bigger now.

Papa Clement wrote:Thanks Jason2, it kept freezing on me when I tried to do it, but we will see if this works:





It does!

This was taken a couple of months ago so he is a bit bigger now.

I was about to say picture entitled "The familiar of the Roman anti-christ in cute pose with a pink ball"..........but then he vanished in a puff of electronic smoke.  Which may seem a bit suspect!

But then he came back!!

Stuart Bailey wrote:I was about to say picture entitled "The familiar of the Roman anti-christ in cute pose with a pink ball"..........but then he vanished in a puff of electronic smoke.  Which may seem a bit suspect!

But then he came back!!

You heard it here first - Stuart's posts are pure fantasy, wishful thinking, an image of an ideal game he would like to be a player in.  Unfortunately reality keeps breaking through to spoil the fantasy, allies mess up whilst enemies just seem to multiply.   Shame, but then I've never found Plato that convincing.

Let me reassure you that there is nothing cute about this cat!  I have the scratch marks to prove it.  As of Thursday he will be 7 months old and probably has another 4-6 inches to grow.  Moves like lightening, kicks me off my chair and then proceeds to rip it to bits, stands on the keyboard and bites through computer cables (perhaps your reference to vanishing in a puff of electronic smoke isn't far off after all), insists on helping himself to every meal I eat, but in fairness does try to help with the washing up afterwards:



And of course he turns up in the most surprising places, rarely where I expect, so perhaps your reference to reappearing may be true as well.

I'm not sure whether he is a fan of LGDR - he has knocked the main game rule book into his water bowl and bites through my game turns (yes, being not very good with technology I still print them off).  But as yet has not been able to offer any great strategic insights.   I suppose that might come with age?