Game 10

Maybe he has something to say about the resurgent Spanish.

Seems there is a new hand at the helm there in Madrid, wonder how The Cardinal will weather the storm, will he tack to France, who have in the past labelled him as a Satanic Necromancer, dabbling in devil worship & foul deeds, & who in the guise of Phillip have managed to seize half Spains colonial Empire, press gang most of his merchant marine, had a stroll into Fanders & ended up buying the place & look to be trying ot gain a monopoly in sunspots in Italy.

Or will he back sails & follow Karlos,he of Hapsburg descent, the same Hapsburgs who abandoned Flanders & Italy , showed no interest at all in the Hapsburg inheretence until the last minute( When it looked as if France might get it) .But has now been given the full blessing of the Cardinals boss in Rome, who personally placed the crown on his head? Another problem with backing the Karlos camp is the that he is currently a guest of the Popes Arch-enemy "The Man formally known as the Duke of Savoy", who apparently has been stripped of his title by Karlos big brother in an argument about building permission in Italy.

Or will we see an Iberian lovestory & Spain & Portugal being brought together in Holy Matromony with the Cardinal acting as a matchmaker.

The Million to one shot is that James Stuart gets offered the throne, means automatic war with England, Scotland & UDP. Problem is that million to one shots occur all the time....

The poisoned chalice of Spain appears to have been taken up by Brave/ Foolish( delete as required) player, personally I wish them the best of luck, I think you may just need some. Seems that a plan has been thought out on how to turn the position around, will be interesting to see what is possible. Spain certainly has had a rough time of it so far in game, maybe this is a line in the sand moment for the position.

J Flower wrote:Maybe he has something to say about the resurgent Spanish.

"meee....WOW!"

Not sure whether that was an expression of surprise, but I can confirm that I am not playing Spain in G10!

More seriously though, if there is a new player for Spain, I wish him the very best of luck - it is a brave choice for any player.  Whichever way he jumps he is likely to upset one or other faction inside Spain and any number of nations outside Spain.  I suspect several months of chaos as others try to second guess or influence his plans.  My only advice is to be consistent and stick with whatever option he chooses until it works - expect problems, expect sizeable honour swings, expect disasters, but there is usually a way through.  Adopting a pragmatic/flexible approach, favouring whoever shouts loudest or changing policy if honour drops is just handing the initiative to others and is likely to confuse Spain's allies.  I have certainly found it very difficult to trust players who chop and change their policies, make contradictory public statements or fail to make necessary decisions early on when they have the support of others.  Spain is not in the position where there is an advantage of playing for time.   The player will know what needs to be done internally and will be well advised to leave foreign policy decisions for a few months until he has exchanged correspondence.

I think there will be a lot of goodwill towards Spain from most quarters - and a very easy way to boost honour by demanding the release of King Carlos.  Fairly sure the seizure of a King, anointed by the Pope, recognised by major powers in Europe, gives otherwise neutral nations a 'just cause' to join in the war against France/Savoy, for it is an attack on the principle of monarchy which most protestant nations uphold.  Perhaps it won't be a case of gaining honour by condemning King Carlos' arrest, but losing honour by not condemning it.  And should anything happen to King Carlos whilst in custody, the condemnation will be deafening.  Makes it rather difficult for a Spanish player to consider dumping King Carlos or for there to be much compromise in dealing with France/Savoy.

Must admit that from previous comments, I am surprised that he did not board a neutral merchant ship to get to Spain.  Perhaps it was an oversight in orders or he just didn't appreciate the risk.  Knowing team France, they don't make many mistakes, so when they do they need to be exploited to the full.  The capture of King Carlos may not have been a mistake initiated by them (strange things happen to positions with very low honour), but holding him almost certainly will be.

On a different matter, I must admit I am puzzled at this "James Bruce", a "Scottish engineer" in the employ of Savoy. Where has he come from? Historically there was a Brigadier James Bruce in the Royal Scots Army but he was an infantry officer.

I do know historically there were way more Scots serving in other people army than in the Royal Scots Army (for example, the Royal Scots Army numbered around 7,000; the UDP alone had something like 4,000 Scots serving in its Scottish Infantry Regiments). I have this dream of Scotland being rich enough to buy up all these foreign units and bring them back home...I need every Scot there is!

Born 1669, served Peter the great.

Also listed as statesman and scientist as well as military leader. Could be used as an engineer ?

Thanks Not come across him, mine was the 6th Lord of Kennet and born in 1655

Could it be that the Whoever has taken over Spain, is also behind the fate of King Karlos of Spain?


Theory being so long as Karlos is being amused in Italy, the Cardinal can claim he is acting in the Name of the absent king, a King who has been crowned by the Pope( His Boss) , recognised in the Partiton treaty by France, England, Scotland & UDP. Brother of the Kaiser who also wants him ot be king. So it must be official ,because all those people with long names & titles say its official.

Just that (un)fortuntely for the Cardinal, Karlos is playing in Italy & isn't at home at the moment.So will just have ot muddle through without him

Spain (un)fortuntely is not able to pay the ransom at the moment, but will get around to it one day soon, maybe, when they have time, of course its very important, but.......

There is also a chance that the cat eats the ransom note before the cardinal gets to read it! Stranger things have happened at sea.

J Flower wrote:Could it be that the Whoever has taken over Spain, is also behind the fate of King Karlos of Spain?

Just that (un)fortuntely for the Cardinal, Karlos is playing in Italy & isn't at home at the moment.So will just have ot muddle through without him

Spain (un)fortuntely is not able to pay the ransom at the moment, but will get around to it one day  soon, maybe, when they have time, of course its very important, but.......

There is also a chance that the cat eats the ransom note before the cardinal gets to read it! Stranger things have happened at sea.

This raises a more interesting point than JFlower may have realised.

The term ‘Cardinal’ is much misunderstood – it simply means a member of the clergy of the city of Rome.  It is not a superior rank to that of a bishop, but usually complements it.  Bishops (whether cardinals or not) are usually entitled to attend Church Councils.  A bishop who is named Cardinal receives a title of a church in Rome and is a Cardinal-Priest or Cardinal-Deacon of that particular church in addition to whichever See he occupies as a bishop.  His power is dependent upon his position as a bishop, appointed by Rome, not on his title of Cardinal which is honorific.

This should become clear when it is understood that there are several types of Cardinal which exist, each signifying certain responsibilities, thus perhaps the best way of thinking of the term ‘Cardinal’ is ‘appointee of Rome with responsibility for xyz’.

A Lay Cardinal does not have to be ordained deacon, priest or bishop, but was usually in minor orders.  Lay Cardinals are very much the exception, usually for outstanding academics or theologians who would for various reasons not be suitable for ordination (e.g. being already married).

A Cardinal-Nephew was a relative of a Pope, created Cardinal for political reasons in the chaos of the Middle Ages.  The practice was prohibited by the Bull Romanum decet pontificem (1692) so in the LGDR period there are no Cardinal Nephews, neither can any be created.

A Cardinal Protector is appointed by the Pope to look after the Catholics within a particular country and has particular significance in countries which do not have a Catholic ruler.   Cardinal Protectors should ensure that (for example) the Catholic minority in Scotland have a voice in Papal deliberations and if they suffer persecution then it is that Cardinal Protector’s duty to appeal to other Cardinals and friendly rulers to intervene.  The duties changed over time (particularly after the Council of Trent) and the title is sometimes confused with Crown Cardinal whose responsibilities are significantly different.  In G10 I appointed Cardinal Protectors for England (William de la Pole), Scotland (Filippo Antonio Gualterio), Ireland (Fabrizio Paolucci) and Flanders (Niccolo del Giudice), “Flanders” being in this instance the breakaway northern provinces known as UDP, since the Papacy in 1700 did not formally recognise UDP as a nation.  It is also necessary to distinguish between other Cardinals of Flanders (formerly Spanish, now Austrian Flanders – French Flanders being the lands annexed by King Louis in the Wars of the Reunions and therefore not ‘Flanders’ in LGDR)

A Crown Cardinal is a Cardinal who places himself under the protection of a secular monarch.   Cardinal-Nephews can be considered an Italian form of Crown Cardinals.  This practice was controversial and contributed to the Western Schism.  Pope Martin V whose election ended the Schism accepted the Papacy on condition that no cardinal could “assume the protection of any king, prince or commune ruled by a tyrant or any other secular person whatsoever.”   Some publications refer to Crown Cardinal Protectors, which simply adds to the confusion.

It has always been the case that a monarch can suggest names of those of his own subjects he considers suitable to be bishops, but no Pope is required to accept that suggestion.  For there to be a valid ordination a bishop must receive the pallium from Rome.  Since ‘cardinal’ is simply a title not an ordained rank, it was natural for monarchs to avoid a clash with Rome over bishops by nominating candidates loyal to them as priests of Rome who (as cardinals) could ultimately be considered for the papacy, effectively trying to buy control of the process.  This rarely worked after the Council of Trent because the number of Italian cardinals outnumbered those from all other nations.

Cardinals should be addressed as [Jason] Cardinal [Flower], not Cardinal [Jason Flower], following the same pattern as bishops.


In the case of Cardinal Portocarrero, his ecclesiastical position is that of Archbishop of Toledo, which by tradition makes him the Primate of Spain (that is the Kingdom of Spain which did not exist as a legal entity in 1700).  He is not the Primate of Hispania (the Spains) which is the title of the Archbishop of Braga (Portugal).

He was made Cardinal Protector of Castile in 1669 and lived in Rome until 1677 when he was given a dispensation to accept secular office as Viceroy of Sicily (1677).  This lasted only a year and he returned to Toledo where he stubbornly refused to accept any financial reform that impacted the Church, gaining the support of other Spanish bishops who were of a similar disposition.  History has not been kind to him, blaming him for his failure to understand or accept the challenges facing Spain, then compounding the error by preferring a Bourbon candidate.  As per his request, his tomb bears the words Hic jacet pulvis, cinis et nihil (here lies dust, ashes and nothing) – false humility or recognition of his failure?

If the player character is Cardinal Portocarrero, then I hope he proves more imaginative than his historical character.  A lot less is known of the historical King Carlos, but I like to think he has more potential to rule Spain well and with the support of his Hapsburg relatives make a success of it.

A bit more about Cardinals ...

Some, but not all, Cardinals vote in a secret consistory to elect a new Pope who requires two-thirds of the votes.

The other privileges of being a Cardinal are few outside the liturgical and ceremonials of Rome, but 3 might be of use to role players in LGDR:
1. Cardinals enjoy all the privileges of bishops in law.
2. They alone may be sent abroad as legates.
3. In formal procession they follow immediately the reigning sovereign and rank with the prince of reigning houses.  

Interestingly in 1630 Pope Urban VIII instructed cardinals to cease correspondence with any sovereign who failed to recognise their rights and status.

The oath taken by the Cardinals is quite similar to that taken by bishops, but the Cardinal must swear that he will defend conscientiously the Papal Bulls concerning non-alienation of the possessions of the Roman Church, nepotism, and papal elections, likewise his own cardinalitial dignity.  A Cardinal's duty of obedience to the Pope is therefore integral to his position: a Cardinal who disobeys a Papal instruction has broken his oath.  All are responsible personally to the Pope and may be removed, excommunicated or otherwise disciplined only by the Pope.  

Since Cardinals exist to help the Pope discharge his duties, the power of Cardinals to act independently of the Pope is severely restricted.  When a Pope dies, the Cardinals are required as a pre-declared command of the Pope to “make all due haste with the election and to concern themselves with nothing else, except in case of necessity, e.g. the defence of the States of the Church or any part of them, or some danger so great and evident that each and every one of the cardinals present thinks it necessary to deal with it immediately.”   Thus the idea that in the absence of the Pope, the Cardinals act as a kind of Parliament exercising the Papal prerogatives is false.  The Cardinals do not possess papal jurisdiction, cannot make laws or modify the system of elections, cannot create cardinals or bishops, commission legates or in any sense govern the Church.  They may in the case of grave danger menacing the Church provide by an absolute majority and secret vote for the necessary ways and means to meet the situation, issuing temporary ordinances for particular diocese and order the public recitation of prayers.  There are no canonical provisions regulating the authority of the College of Cardinals sede Romanâ impeditâ, i.e. in case the Pope became insane, or personally a heretic.

So if the Pope was held hostage or otherwise prevented from carrying out his duties, there is no substitute Pope.  The Cardinals are not obliged to pay any ransom (indeed if they did so it would count as alienation of church property and amount to a breach of their oath), nor can they make any decision which rests with the Pope, so they could not lift any excommunication.  Power would rest in the first instance with bishops, subject to matters reserved to tribunals of Cardinals which would continue to function according to Canon Law.

My understanding for Crown Cardinals is different, and aligns with the Wikipedia entry on it.

Wikipedia entry on Crown Cardinals

Generally Crown Cardinals, which do exist in period, were cardinals elevated to that position at the request of a Catholic Monarch. Their primary role was to ensure no candidate was elected Pope that their Monarch strongly opposed. More generally, I think their view was to ensure that their concerns and issues were appropriately viewed in Rome.

In game, I've generally used them as a back channel of communication to ensure that the Pope understands our position and needs. A public fight between a Catholic Monarch and the Pope doesn't generally serve either party well.

Deacon wrote:
My understanding for Crown Cardinals is different, and aligns with the Wikipedia entry on it.

Generally Crown Cardinals, which do exist in period, were cardinals elevated to that position at the request of a Catholic Monarch. Their primary role was to ensure no candidate was elected Pope that their Monarch strongly opposed. More generally, I think their view was to ensure that their concerns and issues were appropriately viewed in Rome.

In game, I've generally used them as a back channel of communication to ensure that the Pope understands our position and needs. A public fight between a Catholic Monarch and the Pope doesn't generally serve either party well.

The Wikipedia article is not very clear mainly because it ignores how the roles/responsibilities changed under Canon Law and mixes up Cardinal Protectors, Crown Cardinals and Crown Cardinal Protectors.  If a monarch simply wished to ensure his views were represented in Rome he could send an ambassador.  An ambassador would be much more loyal to the monarch than any ordained member of the clergy who would ultimately be bound to the Pope under Holy Obedience.  Cardinals (including Crown Cardinals) are only responsible in law to the Pope.

By Canon Law the choice of Cardinals rests entirely with the Pope, nobody else, so although monarchs could and did put forward their chums for consideration as a Cardinal, their acceptance by the Pope was not mandatory.  If you look at how Canon Law evolved specifically to deal with abuses of monarchs trying to rig the system in their favour and put undue pressure on Popes, this is more reliable evidence as to what the situation was at certain times.

As another relevant example on the Wikipedia list of Crown Cardinal Protectors for Austria is Count Leopold Karl von Kollonitsche (cardinal 1695-1707).  He was formerly Lord Chamberlain under Emperor Leopold, but entered the priesthood in 1668 being ordained bishop the year after.  A papal loyalist, he was instrumental in converting Orthodox Christians in the former Ottoman parts of Hungary to Rome.  He was granted a dispensation to permit him to accept the secular position of Minister of State in 1692, becoming a Crown Cardinal in 1695.  The Pope agreed to this appointment in the hope that it would encourage the Emperor to convert Hungarians.  Kollonitsche was somewhat tactless stating he would “first render Hungary obedient, then destitute, and finally Catholic.”  Perhaps that explains why the Emperor didn’t take his advice, but he remained within his inner circle.  So far as I can discover he was not nominated priest by Emperor Leopold, but chose to leave his service, turning his back on the State for the Church.  That he remained close to the Emperor undoubtedly helped him as a back channel of communication as Deacon suggests, but he was not and could not be appointed by anyone other than the Pope.

I certainly agree that Popes can choose to use Cardinals on a variety of missions and functions, and yes, public fights between Catholic Monarchs and the Pope tend to be avoided, not least because historically Catholic monarchs actually believed that the authority of the Pope and the church was legitimate and necessary, and that it was their duty to support the Papacy not just because their own souls were at risk, but also their people demanded it. In G10 I made the decision to try to appoint candidates as bishops put forward by monarchs partly because I didn't see the point in antagonising rulers and partly because it gave a signal to local churches that they had reached a certain level of spiritual development. When France tried to install Fr.Gasche as Archbishop of Palermo to crown Duke Philip, I summoned him to Rome, subjected him to examination as a candidate for the episcopacy and due process having been observed consecrated him to that position. Rather than accepting that I was trying to be co-operative and work with France, team France simply acted like protestants and sought to deny my authority. Archbishop Gasche understood how Catholics do things and remained loyal to me. A Pope cannot compromise on his authority and this incident was yet another example of France picking an unnecessary fight with the Pope, souring relations instead of trying to heal them.

J Flower wrote:Could it be that the Whoever has taken over Spain, is also behind the fate of King Karlos of Spain?


Theory being  so long as Karlos is being amused in Italy, the Cardinal can claim he is acting in the Name of the absent king, a King who has been crowned by the Pope( His Boss) , recognised in the Partiton treaty by France, England, Scotland & UDP. Brother of the Kaiser who also wants him ot be king. So it must be official ,because all those people with long names & titles say its official.

Just that (un)fortuntely for the Cardinal, Karlos is playing in Italy & isn't at home at the moment.So will just have ot muddle through without him

Spain (un)fortuntely is not able to pay the ransom at the moment, but will get around to it one day  soon, maybe, when they have time, of course its very important, but.......

There is also a chance that the cat eats the ransom note before the cardinal gets to read it! Stranger things have happened at sea.

I must admit I have never found the cats eating anything in Glory, though they have often helped write letters...

...puppies on the the other hand have eaten letters, turns, rule books, supplements...

J Flower wrote:Could it be that the Whoever has taken over Spain, is also behind the fate of King Karlos of Spain?


Theory being  so long as Karlos is being amused in Italy, the Cardinal can claim he is acting in the Name of the absent king, a King who has been crowned by the Pope( His Boss) , recognised in the Partiton treaty by France, England, Scotland & UDP. Brother of the Kaiser who also wants him ot be king. So it must be official ,because all those people with long names & titles say its official.

Just that (un)fortuntely for the Cardinal, Karlos is playing in Italy & isn't at home at the moment.So will just have ot muddle through without him

Spain (un)fortuntely is not able to pay the ransom at the moment, but will get around to it one day  soon, maybe, when they have time, of course its very important, but.......

There is also a chance that the cat eats the ransom note before the cardinal gets to read it! Stranger things have happened at sea.

So the Cardinal is a Blackadder pointing out the new king is, in fact, a Baldrick?

Jason2 wrote:I must admit I have never found the cats eating anything in Glory, though they have often helped write letters...

...puppies on the the other hand have eaten letters, turns, rule books, supplements...

It isn't just game turns he eats ... cardboard and wallpaper have also been destroyed. I suppose I should be grateful he hasn't yet started on toilet rolls.

The pretender Karlos being captured proves that God is a Frenchman in game 10...….

I don't know Basileus, I think it shows he's English and has a sense of humour...well, he must be, given the amount of amusement this must all be bringing to His Majesty's government in London, watching all this Catholic on Catholic action

And I am sorry Kerensky, you are clearly having too much fun, stop it at once

Basileus wrote:The pretender Karlos being captured proves that God is a Frenchman in game 10...….

If God is French in G10 the following must be be minor trials sent by God to stiffen the will of his chosen people:

- The Pope being an Imperial lawyer.
- The Protestant revolt in the Caevennes backed by the HRE & the Doge of Genoa
- The Invasion of the Duke of Anjou's Duchy of Milan by Imperial Hussars
- An Army of Protestant Viking types being invited to the head waters the Rhine by the Emperor.
- Plus the facts that not only are the Hapsburgs offering nothing at all to the Duc of Anjou but they also seem to be putting forward claim to Navarre, Roussillon and the Frenche-Comte.

Oh dear,

Looks like there might be a tiny little be of anti-social behaviour in Italy. Seems war might just have a chance of getting started.Hope everyone behaves themselves & acts in an honourable way as befits the era of Genltemen & Kings.

Time to get comfy in the comfy chair & watch the Catholic countries tear each other apart.

Being an innocent bystander on lifes great highway has its plus sides

J Flower wrote:Oh dear,

Looks like there might be a tiny little be of anti-social behaviour in Italy. Seems war might just have a chance of getting started.Hope everyone behaves themselves & acts in an honourable way as befits the era of Genltemen & Kings.

Time to get comfy in the comfy chair & watch the Catholic countries tear each other apart.

Being an innocent bystander on lifes great highway has its plus sides

Make sure you have plenty of popcorn (or other savoury-or savoy?-snack of your choice) too...

*Lord Melville sits back with oatcakes and orders in extra whisky...*

I am sure however we will see lots of gentlemanly behaviour, infact I wonder if Savoy might try and do a bit of a PR campaign about how well they treat their royal prisoner?  Have him being a guest of honour at a banquet?  Allowed to go hunting (under heavy guard of course)?  Have him held in a royal palace?  Have a whole regiment assigned to ensure his safety? If it was me, I'd get cocky and have him "invited" along with the main army on campaign so he can observe the battles...

Jason2 wrote:

J Flower wrote:Oh dear,

Looks like there might be a tiny little be of anti-social behaviour in Italy. Seems war might just have a chance of getting started.Hope everyone behaves themselves & acts in an honourable way as befits the era of Genltemen & Kings.

Time to get comfy in the comfy chair & watch the Catholic countries tear each other apart.

Being an innocent bystander on lifes great highway has its plus sides

Make sure you have plenty of popcorn (or other savoury-or savoy?-snack of your choice) too...

*Lord Melville sits back with oatcakes and orders in extra whisky...*

I am sure however we will see lots of gentlemanly behaviour, infact I wonder if Savoy might try and do a bit of a PR campaign about how well they treat their royal prisoner?  Have him being a guest of honour at a banquet?  Allowed to go hunting (under heavy guard of course)?  Have him held in a royal palace?  Have a whole regiment assigned to ensure his safety? If it was me, I'd get cocky and have him "invited" along with the main army on campaign so he can observe the battles...

Nice idea from the Scots but knowing how Richard works if you invited Charles von Hapsburg to view the siege of Genoa he would probably get his head taken off by a canon! Just like the Gov of the Bank of England when he visited King William in his siege lines, Charles of Sweden and the Duke of Berwick. Mind you Charles of Sweden was almost certainly and the Duke of Berwick possibly the victim of friendly fire.

Wonder how the Emperor would react to his 2nd son's head getting blown off because the Duc of Savoy had placed him in a good spot to view siege of Genoa?

Alternatively since Charles von Hapsburg has just spent the last few months in that plague hit city of Rome..........the Duc of Savoy might like to send him and his men a doctor rather than dragging him round the Republic of St George. After all it would be terrible if the Emperors 2nd son has caught something in Rome or while dashing around Italy in disguise (at what Sickness level is a character likely to die? Was a bit worried when one of mine got to SL #4........at such points you need to rest not expose one self to Hunting or Siege lines......ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!).

On the plus side if Charles dies of the plague it makes life easier for the new Spanish player. All he needs to do is borrow a King from France (the tend to go "native" fairly quickly) and start talking very quickly to England, UDP and Scotland about why having a Bourbon King is no threat to the balance of power in Europe. That or he has to hope the Pope in Rome also gets the plague and a new Pope is willing to allow him to borrow a King from Portugal.

I wonder...if Carlos/Karl/Charles does meet an untimely but natural end (had forgotten about the plague)...could a creative Spanish government declare that surely such a death was a sign from god and also a sign that the pope had got things wrong? They could then bypass France, go for the Portugal option and (quite possibly) use this to be best buds with England?
France and Austria might both mutter about it...but secretly might be pleased that if they couldn't have the Spanish throne then at least the other didn't get it...and we can all get on with the war of the mayors ear without worrying about that Spanish nonsense...

Jason2 wrote:I wonder...if Carlos/Karl/Charles does meet an untimely but natural end (had forgotten about the plague)...could a creative Spanish government declare that surely such a death was a sign from god and also a sign that the pope had got things wrong?  They could then bypass France, go for the Portugal option and (quite possibly) use this to be best buds with England?  
France and Austria might both mutter about it...but secretly might be pleased that if they couldn't have the Spanish throne then at least the other didn't get it...and we can all get on with the war of the mayors ear without worrying about that Spanish nonsense...

The judgement was not simply the Pope picking a name out of a hat, but a considered and legal judgement which has not been challenged on legal grounds by any player.  If King Carlos dies then this does not provide any legal basis for the Portugal option.

It would be very odd if a new Spanish government disregarded the judgement which was largely in their favour and at least grants legal protection from France!   Portugal withdrew her claim in obedience to Rome when she accepted the judgment.  Portugal could, of course, find other grounds to join in the war and by impressing the Spanish nobility be elected as King by them, the legal King having died and there being no subsequent appeal to the Pope to sort it out again.  This would probably upset France and would be a rather dangerous course to embark upon since it would drag Portugal into a war she had hitherto been determined to stay out of.   This may be good news for Scotland, but I doubt it, since previously Scotland has not been willing to commit to joining in a war on the same side as their King.  France would probably be able to annex Portugal much quicker than it could Spain.  Of course if Portugal's allies joined the war and Spain decided to ally with Portugal we would finally get nearly every European nation fighting Team France, but to preserve Portugal rather than Spain.  I can theoretically see a way through for there to be a combined Portugal and Spain in those circumstances, but it would not occur as a result of any legal claim by Portugal.

It remains one of the big puzzles of G10 that Team France is happy to fight everyone, but has no interest in the throne of Spain.  If she had done the honourable thing and gone for the throne openly (with a declaration of war) then she would have probably conquered Spain before those who could have stopped her managed to organise themselves.  She could have transferred whichever colonies and other bits she wanted to French control, then resigned the throne.  There would then have been no need for a judgement at all.

Papa Clement wrote:  This may be good news for Scotland, but I doubt it, since previously Scotland has not been willing to commit to joining in a war on the same side as their King.  

Well, based on this, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

Jason2 wrote:I wonder...if Carlos/Karl/Charles does meet an untimely but natural end (had forgotten about the plague)...could a creative Spanish government declare that surely such a death was a sign from god and also a sign that the pope had got things wrong?  They could then bypass France, go for the Portugal option and (quite possibly) use this to be best buds with England?  
France and Austria might both mutter about it...but secretly might be pleased that if they couldn't have the Spanish throne then at least the other didn't get it...and we can all get on with the war of the mayors ear without worrying about that Spanish nonsense...

If Charles von Hapsburg dies of the Roman Pox I suspect that both France & Austria might mutter a bit but could be won over to acceptance of a united Kingdom of Iberia under King Pedro.  Which if given a bit of time and a bit of work could easily become the major trade and colonial power in G10.

This however would still leave question marks over:

a) The Duchy of Milan - claimed by Philip of Anjou as Duke of Milan (de-facto run by his loyal Viceroy the excomunicated and banned Duc of Savoy) and also claimed by as an Imperial Fief by the HRE & awarded to himself by the HRE & his Imperial Lawyer in Rome with no consideration for Carlos II actual heirs.

b) The Duchy of Flanders - as per above for the Emperor but also claimed as a French fief by Louis XIV and awarded to his Grandson.

Currently run by a Nephew of Louis as Viceroy for Philip.  Said nephew - Philippe d'Orleans is a loyal hard working, under paid, put upon servant of the Royal House of Bourbon who really does not deserve the grief he is getting about his wife (Louis XIV daughter), his drinking and tennis playing friends or being made an "outlaw" by the Imperial Diet.

Oddly the GM seems to be trying to stop Philippe d'Orleans finding out which AGEMA npc's voted to place him under the Imperial ban.  Even
The Elector of Bavaria seems to have voted in a mixed manner which the Bishop-Princes of the Rhine seem to have totally ignored the Pope and been his friends (Damn it.....I wanted a blood feud, black spots and lackies of the Imperial Lawyer in Rome found floating face down in the Rhine).

c) The Kingdom of Sicily, Lordship of Sardinia and the Kingdom of Naples - claimed by Philip of Anjou as heir to Carlos II and also as Papal fiefs (on very dodgy grounds.......a 10th century document from the Emperor Constantine which oddly no one inc the Civil Service of Constantinople had been aware off for 500 years).  With the leader of the Black Camisards, Grandmaster of the Apollo Association the Doge of Genoa acting for the Papacy.

Personally I think the Emperor is correct the only way these claims are going to be settled is with the sword.  Which is why he is also demanding Navarre, Franche-Comte and Roussillon for the House of Hapsburg.

Clearly as the last argument of Kings has been invoked its now all far above my Characters and the only thing is to dust off the letters of Marque and make sure they stand up in a Scots Prize Count.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Jason2 wrote:I wonder...if Carlos/Karl/Charles does meet an untimely but natural end (had forgotten about the plague)...could a creative Spanish government declare that surely such a death was a sign from god and also a sign that the pope had got things wrong?  They could then bypass France, go for the Portugal option and (quite possibly) use this to be best buds with England?  
France and Austria might both mutter about it...but secretly might be pleased that if they couldn't have the Spanish throne then at least the other didn't get it...and we can all get on with the war of the mayors ear without worrying about that Spanish nonsense...

If Charles von Hapsburg dies of the Roman Pox I suspect that both France & Austria might mutter a bit but could be won over to acceptance of a united Kingdom of Iberia under King Pedro.  Which if given a bit of time and a bit of work could easily become the major trade and colonial power in G10.

This however would still leave question marks over:

a) The Duchy of Milan - claimed by Philip of Anjou as Duke of Milan (de-facto run by his loyal Viceroy the excomunicated and banned Duc of Savoy) and also claimed by as an Imperial Fief by the HRE & awarded to himself by the HRE & his Imperial Lawyer in Rome with no consideration for Carlos II actual heirs.

b) The Duchy of Flanders - as per above for the Emperor but also claimed as a French fief by Louis XIV and awarded to his Grandson.

Currently run by a Nephew of Louis as Viceroy for Philip.  Said nephew - Philippe d'Orleans is a loyal hard working, under paid, put upon servant of the Royal House of Bourbon who really does not deserve the grief he is getting about his wife (Louis XIV daughter), his drinking and tennis playing friends or being made an "outlaw" by the Imperial Diet.

Oddly the GM seems to be trying to stop Philippe d'Orleans finding out which AGEMA npc's voted to place him under the Imperial ban.  Even
The Elector of Bavaria seems to have voted in a mixed manner which the Bishop-Princes of the Rhine seem to have totally ignored the Pope and been his friends (Damn it.....I wanted a blood feud, black spots and lackies of the Imperial Lawyer in Rome found floating face down in the Rhine).

c) The Kingdom of Sicily, Lordship of Sardinia and the Kingdom of Naples - claimed by Philip of Anjou as heir to Carlos II and also as Papal fiefs (on very dodgy grounds.......a 10th century document from the Emperor Constantine which oddly no one inc the Civil Service of Constantinople had been aware off for 500 years).  With the leader of the Black Camisards, Grandmaster of the Apollo Association the Doge of Genoa acting for the Papacy.

Personally I think the Emperor is correct the only way these claims are going to be settled is with the sword.  Which is why he is also demanding Navarre, Franche-Comte and Roussillon for the House of Hapsburg.

Clearly as the last argument of Kings has been invoked its now all far above my Characters and the only thing is to dust off the letters of Marque and make sure they stand up in a Scots Prize Count.

Surely the simplest solution is to, temporarily, place all disputed lands above under Scottish governance and let our excellent lawyers resolve the issues...

However you bring up the Apollo Brotherhood and I am surprised we haven't talked more about them...I have wondered, what if they are the leftover remains of the Knights Templar making a comeback (sorry been enjoying a TV series about Oak island in Newfoundland too much of late)?

Jason2 wrote:

Papa Clement wrote:  This may be good news for Scotland, but I doubt it, since previously Scotland has not been willing to commit to joining in a war on the same side as their King.  

Well, based on this, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

Always a good idea to take me seriously, then you can be pleasantly surprised when I'm not.