Game 10

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Hapsburg wrote:Wonder if Richard would consider adding a section to the newspaper to report alleged breaches of treaty and the Court’s ruling. I am sure we would all find this published aspect of the game fascinating, unless confidentiality is preferred for treaties?

Well as we have sections on shipping losses and the weather - guess we could have a court report as well.  Though I thought we were getting away from viewing "Court Agema" as an actual court in favour of being a "Court of public opinion" reflecting view of a Characters Court and Church towards a Characters actions?

There are some interesting general ideas here, which I am commenting upon rather than the specifics in G10.

Overall I think Hapsburg is correct that if the treaty has been published in the newspaper then it can be placed on the forum if players choose to do so, but that doesn't necessarily mean very much when a treaty is disputed.

Each player can 'ask advisors' on what they think the treaty they have signed means.  But that doesn't mean that in replying to the question, Richard will tell both sides the same and that it therefore has the force of a 'court ruling'.  Indeed if the experience of all the breaches of the Treaty of Scotland in G7 are anything to go by, he will tell each party something different so England, France and Spain all thought the other parties had broken it and could point to 'advice' which they believed settled the matter in their favour.  Such advice is itself private to the players concerned, so unless they put it in the newspaper, it should not really appear on the forum, otherwise as Stuart demonstrates, the forum becomes the 'court of public opinion', which can diverge from the game quite considerably.  

Asking advisors also does not resolve issues where a player has signed contradictory treaties or is prepared to break one to satisfy the other.

Given this, although publishing signed treaties in the newspaper may be of benefit to allies or other interested parties (and is something I tend to do out of courtesy to other players if it could trigger mutual defensive treaties or similar agreements that would potentially affect their own decisions), there may also be good reasons for not publishing treaties.  Treaties are not always entered into honestly, nor even for the purpose one or more of the parties may think they have been.  Most of what are termed treaties are merely expressions of political will at that time which have the advantage of encouraging consistency during the 3 years they are valid.  A 'court' (whether that be 'court agema' or the 'court of public opinion') is not the kind of forum where such agreements can be either challenged or any meaningful resolution forced.

I do not therefore see the point in a monthly 'court report' of grievances.  

Just be careful who you sign treaties/agreements with.  Anything signed by a player who has proved to be untrustworthy or who acts with mixed motives in signing a treaty is unlikely to be worth the paper it is written on and it is pointless going to 'court' to get a ruling against that kind of player.  The penalty in the game for breaking a treaty is through downward pressure on honour, but that is already likely to have happened, and not all players are bothered about honour (or take the hit for breaking a treaty, but spend month after month throwing banquets/balls to get their honour score higher to compensate).  The real diplomatic penalty, though, can be seen by the reaction of other players if they refuse to sign treaties themselves with that player, or try to play him at his own game by treating their agreements with him with the same contempt he has shown to others.

In a sense this is what G7 is about.  The Treaty of Scotland was seen by some as a ceasefire to allow time to prepare for another war; meanwhile actions which were prohibited by the treaty continued through factions.  Now it is time to eliminate those factions, the question to be decided is whether those who backed those factions will be exposed as being dishonourable and in the 'court of public opinion' discredited.  And if they are, whether that will impact on their diplomatic relationships with other players and inactive nations.  Denials only work for so long and then there comes a point where credibility is destroyed and can only be restored by genuine changes in behaviour.  If a nation is believed to have made a treaty dishonestly, then from experience in various games there does not appear to be a penalty if allies do not honour that treaty, even if they signed it in good faith and feel uncomfortable not honouring it.

If you leave out rows over different "readings" of treaties, loss of honour due to treaty violations seem to fall to four groups. Using the Treaty of Scotland in G7 as an example:

a) French troops promise to be off Spanish territory within six months. Eight months later a French force shows up in a Spanish American port in a clear violation of the treaty wording. However as its just suffering from delayed orders and slow movement and Spain which only just got some of its troops too sea just short of deadline hardly objected - No loss of honour seemed to have been suffered. I assume this is a ACCIDENTIAL treaty violation and any honour loss will be very minor or nil ending as soon as violation of treaty ended when the French left on chartered shipping.

b) Years after France promised to withdraw the French Army from Hapsburg territory a very large French Army marches into Spanish Flanders from the UDP in what would seem to be a really open violation of the treaty of Scotland. Local defence forces react in a violent manner and French come under heavy attack as the make their way across Flanders into France.

- As Spain suffered no loss of honour for breaking the non aggression clause of treaty - It would seem that defending ones own territory/soverignity is perfectly acceptable which may also apply to Naples troops in G10? However as Spanish reaction to French Army marching across its territory in violation of treaty was limited to the French troops in Flanders and ended as soon as they left. Would it also have applied if they had taken action against other French troops or continued pursuit across the frontier?????

- French also seemed too suffer no movement on honour table. Not sure if this means they suffered a monthly honour loss untill they got off Hapsburg lands and this stopped as soon as the ended their two month march? Or if GM considered being used as target practice by Spanish Artillery etc was punishment enough without added honour loss? Or if the invasion of Flanders was "ACCIDENTIAL" caused by player just sending movement order without adding return by sea (way they got in to UDP) or march round Hapsburg lands with Embassy to L-C passing out gifts etc. And GM/French command drawing a direct line to Lille without consideration of treaties or likely reaction in Flanders to being used as French door-mat.

c) English attack on HWIC in Oran (Capital of Spanish Africa). Now I viewed having a Spanish port shot to bits and filled with wrecks as a pretty blatent violation of the Treaty of Scotland. But oddly the Jacobite Government seem to have got away with murder literally. Either because they hit and withdrew then rapidly withdrew from the Spanish Port or because the attack was directed at the HWIC who the Jacobites are at feud with rather than the Spanish who they had signed a treaty with. Think the "NON ACCIDENTIAL BUT WITH DEFENCE" is the hardest treaty violation to judge. Jacobites got away with this one but wonder if you signed treaty with King of France and then attacked Corsairs in St Malo or Calais if you would get off soo lightly?????

d) Finally we had the infamous French publication of Spanish Treasury papers after a robbery at the Spanish Treasury. French did come up with very late defence about papers not being stolen by them but "given" to them. Either way the French Government was publically convicted out of its own mouth of employing or at least dealing with thieves and reading a chaps stolen papers!! BLATANT VIOLATION WITH NO DEFENCE. Leading to a fairly major loss of French honour.

- Also have to wonder if the French treasury ministers dealings with thieves and rogues to get hold of stolen Spanish Treasury papers may have impacted on a possible major embezzalement from French treasury?

Too the surprize of some I have never really suffered a loss of honour due to breaking a treaty. Too convinced I would get caught out and hammered by AGEMA if I did break a treaty on purpose.

Worse I have suffered was a sudden 8 point loss of honour due to a minor character (French corsair chief) being sacked by King of France.

Also suffered death by a thousand cuts ie loss of point of honour each month for failure as Ottoman Grand Vizier to save the Bey of Egypt and the Egyptain Jannissary Corp from results of their own crimes (Piracy, handling stolen goods etc) !! Think I cracked after about ten months when honour loss did not stop no matter what I did! Which I still view as harsh as I had no treaty with the Bey of Egypt in fact he may have even had a hand in murder of my characters father. NPC Sultan was also doing sod all and Egypt never helped in my wars.

Think what this shows is that if you are in a "team" position you really have to try and get on with and support rest of team/family. So a Sultan, King William, Holy Roman Emperor etc who get on well with vassels, electors, ministers etc will do well honour wise. But if you fall out with them (even if their are idiots) chances are honour will go backwards. And that is even before any treaties.

Stuart Bailey wrote:If you leave out rows over different "readings" of treaties,  loss of honour due to treaty violations seem to fall to four groups.  Using the Treaty of Scotland in G7 as an example:

a) French troops promise to be off Spanish territory within six months.  Eight months later a French force shows up in a Spanish American port in a clear violation of the treaty wording.  However as its just suffering from delayed orders and slow movement and Spain which only just got some of its troops too sea just short of deadline hardly objected - No loss of honour seemed to have been suffered.  I assume this is a ACCIDENTIAL treaty violation and any honour loss will be very minor or nil ending as soon as violation of treaty ended when the French left on chartered shipping.

b) Years after France promised to withdraw the French Army from Hapsburg territory a very large French Army marches into Spanish Flanders from the UDP in what would seem to be a really open violation of the treaty of Scotland.  Local defence forces react in a violent manner and French come under heavy attack as the make their way across Flanders into France.

- As Spain suffered no loss of honour for breaking the non aggression clause of treaty - It would seem that defending ones own territory/soverignity is perfectly acceptable which may also apply to Naples troops in G10?  However as Spanish reaction to French Army marching across its territory in violation of treaty was limited to the French troops in Flanders and ended as soon as they left.  Would it also have applied if they had taken action against other French troops or continued pursuit across the frontier?????

- French also seemed too suffer no movement on honour table.  Not sure if this means they suffered a monthly honour loss untill they got off Hapsburg lands and this stopped as soon as the ended their two month march?  Or if GM considered being used as target practice by Spanish Artillery etc was punishment enough without added honour loss?  Or if the invasion of Flanders was "ACCIDENTIAL" caused by player just sending movement order without adding return by sea (way they got in to UDP) or march round Hapsburg lands with Embassy to L-C passing out gifts etc.  And GM/French command drawing a direct line to Lille without consideration of treaties or likely reaction in Flanders to being used as French door-mat.

c) English attack on HWIC in Oran (Capital of Spanish Africa).  Now I viewed having a Spanish port shot to bits and filled with wrecks as a pretty blatent violation of the Treaty of Scotland.  But oddly the Jacobite Government seem to have got away with murder literally.  Either because they hit and withdrew then rapidly withdrew from the Spanish Port or because the attack was directed at the HWIC who the Jacobites are at feud with rather than the Spanish who they had signed a treaty with.  Think the "NON ACCIDENTIAL BUT WITH DEFENCE" is the hardest treaty violation to judge.  Jacobites got away with this one but wonder if you signed treaty with King of France and then attacked Corsairs in St Malo or Calais if you would get off soo lightly?????

d) Finally we had the infamous French publication of Spanish Treasury papers after a robbery at the Spanish Treasury.  French did come up with very late defence about papers not being stolen by them but "given" to them.  Either way the French Government was publically convicted out of its own mouth of employing or at least dealing with thieves and reading a chaps stolen papers!!  BLATANT VIOLATION WITH NO DEFENCE.  Leading to a fairly major loss of French honour.

- Also have to wonder if the French treasury ministers dealings with thieves and rogues to get hold of stolen Spanish Treasury papers may have impacted on a possible major embezzalement from French treasury?

I quite like the classification Stuart uses here, although not convinced by the examples:

a) Accidental treaty violations caused by both sides trying to comply with a treaty, but Agema-induced factors such as delayed orders, weather, etc ... clearly not the fault of players so it makes sense that players should not be penalised for them.

b) Mix-up in communication by forces on the ground (if we are being kind).  French forces were under a flag of truce and attempted to warn Spanish forces of what they were doing, but were never given the chance before Spanish forces attacked.  There may or may not have been minor movements on honour for both sides over this, but as those who read the G7 thread will have realised there are other interpretations of these events.

c) Faction squabbles.  This is not as Stuart describes.  England was at war with HWIC at the time and the Treaty of Scotland prohibited Spain from giving any help to factions at war with England.  Thus not only did the English attack not violate the Treaty of Scotland, English honour actually went up.  Stuart may have believed that Oran was Spanish territory, but he had given control to HWIC and the ships sunk were clearly HWIC ships who had been targeting English merchants.  Of course had any Spanish forces inside Oran opened fire on English ships then that would have been a breach of the Treaty of Scotland and therefore landed Spain in trouble.  As it happens this didn't occur because my ships had achieved their objective.  The same happened more recently on Tobago where English forces retook HWIC's Caribbean base including Spanish-flagged ships.  English honour went up because I was attacking pirates who I was already at war with.  Clearly from an honour perspective the use of factions complicates matters.

d) Blatant breach of treaty.  Again, events are not necessarily as Stuart describes: we don't know precisely how the treasury papers fell into the hands of France, but if they were given by a 3rd party (certainly not England) or found as a result of raiding Desmaret's private papers, then it would appear not to be a breach of treaty (rather a happy coincidence?)  I also don't think French honour fell as a result of these actions - it had already fallen as a result of the fraud being discovered and consequent forced loan taken out from French nobles.

I would also add another category here ...

e) Breaches of treaty where the wronged party either takes no action or explains it away for political reasons.  This has actually been the most common response to nearly all breaches of the ToS in G7.  There may have been a few allegations in the newspaper, but in terms of hard action, both sides have been reluctant to go to war over breaches or go screaming to 'Court Agema'.  Under those circumstances, honour may well not be as impacted as would otherwise be.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Too the surprize of some I have never really suffered a loss of honour due to breaking a treaty.  Too convinced I would get caught out and hammered by AGEMA if I did break a treaty on purpose.

It is more likely, as I stated in my previous post that compensating factors (such as throwing banquets/balls, commissioning paintings, etc) all acted to offset honour falls.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Think what this shows is that if you are in a "team" position you really have to try and get on with and support rest of team/family.  So a Sultan, King William, Holy Roman Emperor etc who get on well with vassels, electors, ministers etc will do well honour wise.  But if you fall out with them (even if their are idiots) chances are honour will go backwards.  And that is even before any treaties.    

This could also be a factor if you have a royal marriage.  In G7 Stuart has been very historical in pursuing Hapsburg marriage policies to encourage allies.  This may create an obligation to help those marriage partners when they are in trouble or at least not go to war with them.  That said, in real history, Louis' queen was Spanish and shortly after the marriage France and Spain were at war.  The real impact may have been to reduce the queen's influence at Versailles, rather than any in game honour impact in similar situations?

Thank you for all your comments and examples, appreciated.

I asked Richard if a new section could be added to the newspaper to report alleged breaches of treaty and the Court's rulings.

No new section for the newspaper but players are permitted to quote a ruling via an article of their own would work best......if desired!

When I asked if a player could quote the full text of a Court ruling in their article, he said you can try!!!

So we shall see what happens.

The Revenant wrote:

Marshal Bombast wrote:

The Revenant wrote:Ahem...

10. The Asante left England to return home, while the Denkyirahene also went home escorted by an Asanthene guard of honour to the borders.

Actually, the Asante Delegation remain ensconced in their London mansion, it was just the (somewhat superfluous) mounted escort that sailed home.  Just saying>  

Sorry my bad

Just didn't want to worry my hosts.  Thinking I'd gone off in a huff!

Catching up on the forum... Glad to hear that you are still in merry ole England.

Interesting turn, Rebellions & Uprisings, Fire & Famine, Looks like the Christmas Break was well used by Agema.

So here goes another year of Fun & Frustration. Enjoy it Gents.

J Flower wrote:Interesting turn, Rebellions & Uprisings, Fire & Famine, Looks like the Christmas Break was well used by Agema.

So here goes another year of Fun & Frustration. Enjoy it Gents.

Have been sent copy of latest G10 paper by someone who thought I might find it funny......Thank you J Flower.

After getting over shock that the Pope Clement character (Papal Lawyer supreme when actively played) now standing on his head has a NPC have looked at the classes of treaty violation and the likely results proposed earlier in this thread and trying to work out how many have been ticked off in one turn ???!!!!! And does this thread need a new title:-

a) Think the violation of Spanish Milanese territory by Bavarian troops attached to the Imperial Army is a bit like the French marching in a straight line across Flanders in G7 to get back to France. Would say its a clear but probably accidential violation and will only cost honour if Spanish object about the violation of their territory and only for the period of the violation. But danger of taking short cuts like this without getting the OK first is that the locals can take shots at you thinking its a invasion.

b) Naples is such a mess from a treaty point of view with Spanish troops landing on territory not fully acknowleged as not theirs and then getting attacked by local forces semi-detached from the Empire with which they have a treaty that I think its now to be viewed as a "stand alone" case which should NEVER be used in any other circumstance. Seems that no penalty has been applied to Spain or Austria for either the "Spanish invasion" or the "attack on Spanish troops" and that Naples/Sicily is now considered as Austrian and no more Spanish troops can land but Austrian/local troops can not attack troops already in place.

Personally I would have said Naples is a seperate Kingdom under the son of the Emperor and is outside the geographic scope of the existing Austro-Spanish treaty so they can knock the hell out of each other in Naples without impact on promises not too attack Spain or Austria but it seems I would be wrong! De-facto position would seem to be Spain can keep its bridgeheads in the Kingdom of Naples & Sicily but can not reinforce them while the Austrians can not wipe them out before the expiry date of treaty.

Just to add too the fun and games Naples is a Papal Fief and Charles von Hapsburg based his claim to Naples on having the blessing of Pope Clement in Rome. But Pope Clement has now disowned him and is now backing Pope Rodrigo as King of Spain (inc Naples, Sicily and Sardinia????).

Would seem that to have any legal claim the Emperor and his son need to either a) Abandon Pope Clement for Pope Leo who is still following Church Law that a legitimate heir outranks a illegitimate one or more likely get the Pope to bend over backwards and confirm that while its ok for a questionable birth to become King of Spain and the Papal fief of Sardinia it is not ok for one to become King of Naples and Sicily. Even though historic examples would seem to be other way round.

c) Just to confuse things even more the Dutch seem to share my view (but not Agema) that the Kingdom of Naples is not part of the Archduchy of Naples or the Holy Roman Empire and are now taking action against Naples but not Austria. Hope they do not have treaty with Austria??

Though it does seem that the Dutch are more upset about the mis-use of their Flag than they are about the actual attack on their "Spanish allies". Does using someone else's flag to fool a third party count as a hostile action against the flag owner and possible treaty violation?

d) Finally we have slaughter in their beds and without warning of French troops in South America by their Spanish allies. As subjects of the French Crown and a technical part of the French Navy think its aways been accepted that the privateering branch of the French Navy and their colonial troops are covered by French treaties so on the face of it this slaughter is a 100% violation by Spain of the Franco-Spanish treaty.

However with the ending of the experiment of French micro position the Corsair list is only slowly merging back into the main French position. A gain for the for the main French player but one he is going to spend months looking at through his fingers while wondering do I hide this under the carpet or come clean about this?
So it is perfectly possible that when wiped out these subjects of the French King we not on the French list? Is that a technical defence? Mind you merchant ships and even towns are not on main lists and scream treaty violation if you attack them.

Suspect reason for slaughter was that while the Corsairs are drifting back into the main French service they are open too other offers so Government in Madrid decided to wipe out possible 5th column on their soil before Agents of the Emperor got to them with big bags of gold. But if this was the case why did Madrid only wipe out 150 men and why not bribe them first? Does Madrid figure that they need to start a war with the Corsairs and wipe them out before they all drift back and reinforce the main French position?

And how will UDP, England and Scotland react if Corsairs take revenge for the slaughter?

Game 10 arrived and I can’t understand where the Prince of Brandenburg went on the Honour table, having been ranked 5th and how the King of Prussia jumped into 3rd

1. Konigsberg saw the coronation of Frederick I, as King In Prussia with an assortment of internationally esteemed guests attending. The King crowned himself to symbolise only being held to account by God. Who then will hold the Crown Prince to account for being AWOL from the army, I hear the army’s pretty strict on this kind of thing..

2. Verdun saw Imperial reinforcements arrive ahead of 3 French armies who made camp outside. Meanwhile the Royal French Baltic fleet appears to have suffered navigational issues as it appeared off Trieste. The French cavalry seem to be protecting areas of France better as they skirmished with Austrian Hussars, hampering their raids.

3. Austrian raids disrupted any rest the French were trying for in Reims, and spilled over into Aquitaine where locals were rebelling against French rule. Reims is back under French civilian control. Austrian forces around Limoges found that Spanish troops are still occupying parts of France.

4. Liege-Cologne complained about the loss of their merchant shipping last month and Russia’s ambassador to Austria found there isn’t a foreign ministry, which may explain things in some part.

5. France and Saxony appear to have taken up the mantle of wooing different small nations in middle Europe. Saxony has had one of their esteemed military commanders General-feldmarschall Adam Heinrich von Steinau appointed as Reichsfeldmarshall, commander of the Reichsarmee.

6. As Scottish troops were manoeuvring in Europe, Lord Melville laid the Act of Succession & Diplomacy before the Scottish parliament, who promptly voted it through with a 2:1 ratio in favour.

7. The Asante started their drive for economic domination of London by announcing their new trades of Palm wine, Kenkeliba Tea, Kola nuts, and herbal remedies. I wonder what they’re buying in return. Meanwhile back in Africa night soil men have been employed across the nation.

8. Peace Talks in The Hague saw France restate a white peace is all it’s offering given they have had military successes and the Imperial ally faction hasn’t. French Flanders signed the Treaty of The Hague 1705 as it was deemed more advantageous to France than the alternative.

9. Neopolitan merchants have been banned from trading with the UDP. While not normally commenting on the letters pages it will be interesting to see how far this goes given a letter purporting to be from Spain is claiming that the Maritime Powers treaty should now be activated to support Spain militarily. I suspect the Maritime Powers will have more pressing issues to resolve with the failed harvest in all 3 countries, and then making back payments for their hired mercenaries. Still the Dutch navy has started a blockade of Naples.

10. Moscow saw the redecoration of the cathedral for the upcoming wedding as many prominent guests arrived early for the celebrations. More guests are on their way having stopped off for the coronation in Prussia.

11. His Holiness backed Frederick Augustus as King of Poland and removed the excommunication on Rodrigo in Spain, recognising him as His Most Catholic Majesty. The backing of God doesn’t appear to have helped Spain with re/capturing Sassari where their assault turned again into a standstill despite reinforcements. Can someone remind me who King Philip of Spain. Apparently his garrison holds Cartagena de Indias?

12. A fireship attack on New York failed to sink any merchant ships. The English Royal Navy let nearby pirates continue on their way with their prizes, though they did drive pirates away from Boston.

13. In Dehli the Great Moghul of India, Aurangzeb of Malwa passed away in his sleep to be replaced by his eldest son and heir Muhammed Azam Shah.

14. Edo saw a statement issued calling for the first great council in September.

In Fukuoka, we found our hero at the mercy of Misako, but instead of killing Yoshimune the demon begged him to help her against her master who was intent on destroying the Shogun. Awakening later we’re left to wonder if it was it a dream or did his head just hurt from too much sake. We’ll never be quite sure but the experience was enough to divert him to the island of Iki. Perhaps here his journey will end, and a battle between his head and his heart may begin.

For a while I was wondering if there would be a post on this thread, and then two come along, and the first by Stuart who has left the game! Stuart always highlights the possible reasoning behind actions that you had not considered.

Well at least we know that Richard will allow players publish a Court ruling in full and I am sure everyone appreciates the amount of work and level of detail Richard put into determining this breach of treaty complaint. Given the number of rulings Richard must know this treaty inside out    Every time you seek a ruling and think you know what the result will be, turns out it is never that simple!

Hapsburg wrote:For a while I was wondering if there would be a post on this thread, and then two come along, and the first by Stuart who has left the game! Stuart always highlights the possible reasoning behind actions that you had not considered.

Well at least we know that Richard will allow players publish a Court ruling in full and I am sure everyone appreciates the amount of work and level of detail Richard put into determining this breach of treaty complaint. Given the number of rulings Richard must know this treaty inside out    Every time you seek a ruling and think you know what the result will be, turns out it is never that simple!

Think I just want to see:-

a) How Charles von Hapsburg and his dear old Dad get out of having nailed their claims too the mast that is the wisdom and legal opinion of Pope Clement. Only too be totally wrong footed when the Pope turns round and says Charles von Hapsburg has no claim to Naples etc and its all belongs too King Rodrigo of Spain.

Wound really, really love to know how King Rodrigo pulled off this diplomatic master stroke since every character who's player disliked by character as a PC have really hated them as NPC's !!!

b) Also want to see how Spain (aided by Louis XIV or left in the mire?) explains that the massacure of 150 sleeping Frenchmen in Guayaquil is not a total breach of the Franco-Spanish treaty?

Now I fully understand that these men being hostile to both Pope Clement and getting rid of the Slave Trade could be possible recruits to revolt in the colonies and the attack can be viewed as a pre-emptive strike.

But I suspect breaking a treaty to kill unprepared subjects of Louis XIV for what they might do rather than anything they have done counts as shooting one self in the foot on almost the same scale as the turning of Pope Clement was a master stroke!! Even if Madrid can point to a clause in treaty saying all French troops need to withdraw meaning the French were actually breaking a treaty and its ok to shoot "invaders" I doubt if the honourable public of Spain are going to be that happy with all of these switches of position over Popes and the execution of "allies" who were going to help get back Naples only a few turns ago.

Or perhaps how I play Hapsburg Spain in G7 is just too soft, cute and cuddly Though note to self if anyone called Alberoni shows up on list they can clearly a trouble maker and should be put on first boat back to Italy. Ideally one flying a HWIC flag and in Cannon shot of the English fleet. That or given a job with the Viceroy of Africa in Oran.

The game turn arrived today with some surprising changes to the honour table including the return of the French Corsairs in 10th place.

1. King Rodrigo had some ups and downs this month as various outposts of the Spanish Empire decided that he was out to kill them and Milan made a bid for political independence. Not sure that was wise with a Spanish army moving further eastwards in France, or was that north? Still Pope Clement appears to have agreed that Sardinia, Sicily and Naples belong to Spain so that’s got to be an upside for him.

2. France’s fightback against her invaders was getting some traction as French forces laid siege to imperial forces in Verdun and Luxemburg. I wonder how hard French honour would be hit if her forces stormed a breach and sacked her own towns. However, Verdun doesn’t seem to have any fortress canons to help defend so we’ll see what happens.

3. In other areas France seems to have finished attacking Naples by taking the view that they’ve met their treaty obligations to Spain. Though there’s some discussion around why Spain attacked French military forces in the Americas.

4. Duke George William of Brunswick-Luneburg died in his sleep with his heir being Prince Elector George Ludwig of Hanover.

5. The Maritime Powers still seem to be deciding what they should be doing about their treaty obligations to Spain, but are preparing militarily in the meantime. King William laid out to the peace conference his view of how civilians should be respected in war.

6. Sweden skirmished with the French navy in the Baltic while laying out the only condition it had for peace with France, relating to who owned Franche-Comte.

7. Leutnant Crown Prince Frederick Wilhelm was given a tour of Moscow’s military, including the traditional anti-cavalry weaponry in pride of place. The Crown prince seemed more interested in the coach he was given and how its technology could be used in the Prussian military.

8. Mont Pelee erupted killing 3,000 civilians in Martinique.

9. In Accra the Asante musketeers begrudgingly acceded to further training under the Dutch, while in Kumasi the funeral of the royal herald Kwame Bua was held.

10. Fasting to help reduce the effects of famine has started in the Kingdom of Akwamu.

11. There were further letters at the end of the paper but no update on Misako, has her master found out about her treachery and ended her story? Perhaps we’ll find out next month…

I am hoping Misako and Yoshimune's story continues next month, my orders this month were dominated by an administrative issue that needs resolving to keep the Rising Sun well.....rising !

count-de-monet wrote:I am hoping Misako and Yoshimune's story continues next month, my orders this month were dominated by an administrative issue that needs resolving to keep the Rising Sun well.....rising !

Had a quick look copy of paper a kind (?) person sent me and I must say I was very disappointed that the latest issue of the Misako/Yoshimune love story was not in the paper. My money is still on she dies in his arms after saving him by taking a killing blow intended for Yoshimune thought that does rather spoil further books in the series. Though it sort of worked for James Bond after his wife was killed and the "Bride" in Kill Bill.

Perhaps more importantly than the fact that a semi-degraced privateer is back on the honour list. Is the fact that a Holy Roman Emperor has now slipped off the honour list and below a semi-disgraced French privateer !! Could this be because he has ignored the Pope and declined to give the Papal fief's of Naples and Sicily to the Popes current darling boy in Madrid?

Or is it because most of Europe is now pleading for the end of a war declared by the Emperor to throw the French out of Italy and save Genoa? With the King of France having accepted the Emperor original war objectives and having withdrawn from Genoa and Italy. He has now asked for a totally reasonable peace which would restore 1700 borders, free POWs and stop the bloodshed and economic damage. But the Emperor seems to be dragging his feet somewhat which may be worrying his his Princes and Commanders somewhat as they face what looks like a slow but steady French military recovery.

In particular the total wipe out of a small Imperial force in Dijon by Berwick Veteran Army back from their victory at Genoa must worry anyone with this force nearing their flank. Following their storming of Genoa this force was known to be happy and victorious with its pockets filled by the bullying tactics of a certain friend of King Louis XIV and his wife and associate of the semi-disgraced corsair. But also too be badly in need of lots of rest on a nice beach in the South of France. Having been left soaking up the rays in Marsailles harbour side cafes and collecting reinforcements like the crack Royal Regiment of Marine Artillery for half a year it would now seem that this force is back.

Also worrying Imperial Princes and the Swedish Navy is the fact that the French Navy seems to have effectively won its war at sea following the total destruction of the Imperial Navy in Naples Harbour. Even the odd Frigate Captain in the Baltic seems to have read a French Navy tactical manual. In my day it was a simple run away or run alongside and board them in the smoke with cold steel !! Suddenly we have got French Frigate captains ripping Swedish rigging to bits with chain shot. Then going to fancy moves to put their ship in a position too stern rake. Even more shockingly it worked.

Faced with gentile pressure to actually make some policy decisions ref the War on France and the about turn in Rome on his return from damning his daughter to enternal damnation (via her transfer from good Catholic girl to the Heretic Russian Orthodox Church). It also seems that the Emperor and the Aulic Council has a interesting problem with the Imperial fief of Milan. Where the Viceroy has decided that he has just as much right to be Prince of Milan as a illegitimate son of the late Duke Carlos II.

Ok so the Duke of Milan is known as a Prince of the Empire like the various other Electors, Grafs, Landgrafs etc but I thought the Emperor and the Aulic Council were against the attempt by the Duke of Savoy to promote Milan from a Duchy to a Principality? As well as issue of correct title .......has the increase for the King in Prussia triggered Title inflation and upset in the HRE? We now seem to have at least two but perhaps as many as five men claiming to be Duke or Prince of Milan.

Clearly it would help if the Emperor could make a decision with the Aulic Council on such an important matter (and a couple of others as well !!) rather than going hob nobbing with a bunch of half Asian former tax collectors for the Golden Horde! Not only is he giving his daughter to the "Beast from the East" but he is allowing the Russian Hordes with their wild beards and drunken vodka filled orges into fair Trieste.

Is it any wonder his honour has slipped below a semi-disgraced French privateer. Though now doubt King Louis may forgive him and allow him back into court if many more French Frigate captain learn to read French Royal Navy battle manuals and stop acting like Privateers though that may be somewhat further off for mix of French, Spanish and ???? who feed King Rodrigo's men to the Bull sharks in the Harbour (very hygenic keeps the street clean) after dispute over does "King" Rodrigo have a legitimate claim to tax them and ban elements of their trade. Think that crowd more likely to get invited to join board of the HWIC or to a rum party with Blackbeard than get invited back into polite company at Versailles if its ever rebullt.

I'm sure the Holy Roman Emperor will make a return to the honour table.................. when peace is agreed lol.

Hapsburg wrote:I'm sure the Holy Roman Emperor will make a return to the honour table.................. when peace is agreed lol.

Well you do have to work pretty hard to keep the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope off the Honour Table.

In other active games of Glori I note that Emperors have torn up a treaty mid term, lead the Austrian Army into a military disaster, got Prince Eugine killed, stole the Duchy of Milan from their little neice and even been savaged for months at a time by an Italian Cardinal widely viewed as Agema best at this sort of thing. And still the Holy Roman Emperor is one of the most respected people in the Game.

Actually to be fair apart from damning his own daughter to internal damnation I do not think the Emperor in G10 has really done anything which is going to damn his reputation in the long run apart from with the French and their opinion does not count ref the HRE standing on the honour table. In fact being hated and loathed by the French for a bit of Ottoman style rape, loot and pillage is probably going to help the Emperor standing in the long run.

The position which may however have suffered more long term damage to its reputation is the Papacy. Having seemingly been responsible for a thundering great schism in the Roman Catholic Church & revolts against Catholic Monarchies. Prior to taking a huge Spanish bribe to rip up 1000 years of Church Law, stand on your head and stab your close ally in the back is not the type of actions which are forgiven in a hurry.

Game 10 arrived.

1. The Tsar got married and had a marathon party fest

2. Some other stuff happened hic.

Marshal Bombast wrote:Game 10 arrived.

1. The Tsar got married and had a marathon party fest

2. Some other stuff happened hic.

Really impressive summary from a Russian point of view

Apologies for the delay in the global report for this month. France has made an appearance on the table in 10th place, is it because of the support given to Martinique, the pitched battle in France or just playing leap frog with His Most Sacred Majesty and French sub ordinates?

1. Verdun saw a pitched battle take place that saw the Dauphin make a strategic advance to the rear and Swedish forces broke through the siege. French forces continued to besiege Luxembourg, lacking siege artillery to make a breech. Other French forces were preparing to besiege Besancon.

2. Spain has engaged French Corsair shipping in the Americas, which is interesting as French Corsairs were leading the French fleet supporting Spain against Naples not that long ago. Then again, Spain paid for the French Corsairs in Cartagena des Indias to be transported back to France.

3. In the Hague, Sweden offered France terms for a truce independent of Austria, we’ll see if France accepts, given the dispute over who represents France at the talks. Stadtholder William put forward an armistice proposal for consideration by both sides.

4. The HWIC listed on the Antwerp Stock exchange. Will be interesting to see G10 interpretation of Honourable.

5. The Asante delegation were evicted from their London lodgings, while Lord Godolphin was distracted by obtaining food for the Maritime powers.

In Kumasi another funeral was held, this time for the prominent court physician who died last month.

In Akwanufie conversations steered towards whether this run of bad luck, including a poor harvest was due the gods showing disfavour for not unifying Akane speakers quickly enough.

6. Copenhagen appears to be having some confidence issues in their paper currency not being universally accepted.

7. Poland refused more forces the right to cross their lands, until their King arrived with a Saxon escort when Polish forces acquiesced. Was this the basis of the problems Stanislaw referred to for not taking sides in the Pope/Antipope dispute.

8. Siracusa appears to be a military melting pot with Neapolitan forces holding the gates and walls, while Spanish and Genoese forces are in the town. Spain has also been active in promoting their interests of its colonies in the Americas.

9. Edo saw the Russian ambassador welcomed, though part of his entourage were missing, as was the Genoese ambassador!

10. Iki Island saw our brave hero step into a land succumbed to evil and demons. Luckily, he came across a local who didn’t agree with the current state of things and was given divine aid and some timely advice. Our hero’s target has changed, at least temporarily, to Ling-Fe.

Ref - 4. The HWIC listed on the Antwerp Stock exchange. Will be interesting to see G10 interpretation of Honourable.

The Dutch West Indies Company otherwise known as the West-Indishe Compagnie (WIC) was the lesser known younger brother of the famous Dutch East India Company or Vereenigde Ootindische Compagnie (VOC).  The WIC and the VOC were amongst the worlds first International Joint Stock companies and interpreted legitimate competition to include destroying other nations trade posts in Africa, South America and in the East.  Bullying local rulers with armed force into granting exclusive trading rights and then finally establishing colonies.

The WIC set a yet to be beat record for % return on capital in a single year when its Fleet under Piet Hein captured the whole Spanish Plate Fleet with cargo still loaded.  This was the only time this was done in the whole history of the Plate Fleet as its other losses were either elements of the Plate Fleet or when the English destroyed the Plate Fleet in harbour at start of WSS the main silver cargo had already been unloaded and majority of cargo lost was actually the property of Dutch and English merchants.

However by our period the WIC had actually gone bust due to a war in Brazil with the Portuguese and its over generous dividend policy.

So I see the news that this famous Dutch Company has been reformed on the Amsterdam market as a possible "retirement" home for Corsairs about to be made  unemployed if France and the Emperor dot the I and cross the T's to settle the final small issue outstanding (ie who owns Franche Comte).  Though some pretty brutal Austrian actions in burning thousands too death in Nantes and Bordeaux may have set things back a bit.  Also a possible retirement home for Slave Ships and merchants about to be made unemployed by the Pope in Rome and the Council in Madrid.

As Marshal Bombast said it will be very interesting to see how honourable Richard allows King Williams new trade company to be if staffed in such a manner?  Sure this bunch of kindly old sea dogs trying to earn an honest crust by shipping cargo's of Tobacco, Sugar and Cotton will be no trouble at all?  No way would they even dream of breaking a Papal order and Spanish Law on the matter by smuggling slaves too Spanish America for the Ashante.

Oddly Spanish authorites in the America's also seem to be trying to recruit ex Corsairs and other Frenchmen in the America's.  After first viewing tham as a security hazard and blaming them for banditry on the other side of the Andes.  The geographically challenged Spanish authorities first wiped out a sleeping Squadron of a French Regiment on the Pacific coast.  Now after their Dragoons have killed 400 bandits on the main (probably not a single Frenchman) Spanish authorities have now cleared the same French Regiment they attacked for being bandits and tried to recruit both them and other French troops on King Louis XIV island of Hispaniola though for some reason they were still flying a Spanish flag on Hispaniola?????!!!

Probably due to being slaughtered in their beds only a short while before and having King Rodrigo down as a "wrong - un" the French have declined his latest offers.  Which either proves they have more honour than Pope Clement or they were not offered as large a bribe as King Rodrigo paid to Pope Clement to get him too stand on his head and do tricks.

It is possible that with King Rodrigo officially at peace with Austria, France and the UDP-England but at the same time slaughtering them in their beds and  threntening to ban their slave traders and not pay his debts to Austria.  Could we be going back to a "no peace beond the line" situation.

And what role will the Honourable Company play in all this?

Anyone know if an NPC position has ever breached a treaty with a player?

Eventful turn, my visit to Besancon with the family in the summer seems a long time ago. Fantastic citadel!

Hapsburg wrote:Anyone know if an NPC position has ever breached a treaty with a player?

Eventful turn, my visit to Besancon with the family in the summer seems a long time ago. Fantastic citadel!

In answer to your Question my answer is YES - I have been sadly mistreated by both the lieing cheating, double crossing Venetians and the lieing, cheating, backstabbing, cowardly dogs of the Janissary Corp (Ottoman Sultanate) who have broken treaties with my positions in games of Glori du Roi.

However I would add couple of related points:-

a) Has you treaty been broken in letter or spirit? In so far as NPC's are concerned Agema tends to totally ignore the spirit and in my humble opinion its lawyers have some odd views on wording.

b) Did Court Agema agree with me & did it do anything about said breach of treaty? (In my case that would be a big fat NO)

c) Any special circumstances? Agema certainly seemed to take view that if some easy come, easy go Ottoman Grand Vizier who does not understand past hard feelings gets everyone in the Ottoman Empire to promise to be nice and support each other then buggers off. Then said treaty wording is clearly not still binding on the Anatolian Janissary Corp and other NPC if it puts them under command of a certain Rumelian Layerbay who might think defending Egypt to the last Janissary a really fun thing to do.

However, same treaty obligation to help defend all parts of the Ottoman Empire including Egypt was clearly still binding on Player Character run Rumelia even if the Grand Vizier (Ottoman Anatolian player) was history and the Bey of Egypt was a damn pirate getting a well justified kicking from various upset parties and Rumelia did not like him very much either.

As a rule of thumb a treaty you agree with a NPC (agema) run position will be very limited and honoured to the letter. A treaty which you have agreed with a player who has then dropped is binding on you but basically not worth the paper it is written on with regards too the NPC position.

What would be interesting to find out would be if as a new player you pick up a NPC position which has been happy to ignore a treaty for months and months do you suddenly come under terrible pressure to honour it?

Hapsburg wrote:Anyone know if an NPC position has ever breached a treaty with a player?

Eventful turn, my visit to Besancon with the family in the summer seems a long time ago. Fantastic citadel!

I'm not specifically aware of any examples, but it would be within the spirit of the game for a player to expend orders to affect an NPC country and get results, which could include breaking a treaty.

Playing an Ottoman position in G7 does make me wonder whether other Ottoman NPC's would work together if one was attacked. Perhaps would only need to 'influence' Anatolian Sultan to have a knock on effect to other Ottoman positions but probably would need to 'influence' all of them.

Thanks to Stuart and Marshal for confirming my suspicions

Looks like a clear breach to me, so will see what sort of explanation is offered by the NPC before any possible Court action. I won't say which nation it is but you may have guessed!

Mind you, not sure if the Court has any spare capacity at the moment to consider another breach of treaty allegation

The game turn arrived earlier this week with no position changes in the honour table

1. Besancon saw Reichsfeldmarshall Adam Heinrich von Steinau field the Reichsarmee against the outnumbered French besiegers. After showing French officers how effective rifle armed Saxon light infantry can be, the French retreated. The Saxon’s advanced after them and won a famous victory over the French before returning to the safety of Besancon.

2. Meanwhile at Verdun the Swedes made a strategic advance to the rear, saying they didn’t think they could achieve their original objective. The Imperial army left Verdun shortly afterwards as the French reinforced their positions.

3. In the West Indies a Royal Spanish squadron found some French crewed ships disguised as Spanish. After a short exchange of fire, the French escaped only to find the weather unkind to their sails, when they shortly surrendered.

Elsewhere French crewed Spanish Great Frigates captured Spanish armed liners. Probably in an attempt to replace the fireships the French sent into Toulon, though the damage was reduced by the quick actions of a Spanish crewed French galley.

4. Sassari saw the end of resistance to Spanish Royal rule, with most of the rebels being killed.

Cartagena De Indias came under the control of the HWIC.

Hispaniola came under the nominal control of France, with Bourbon flags flown over Santo Domingo. The city was the scene of a hanging of a presumed spy who supposedly tried to bribe a French regiment to defect to Spain.

5. In Paris the English ambassador invited France to send an ambassador to London showing the will for closer diplomatic links over the grain situation.

Hanover’s new Ambassador arrived in Paris, and later the recently married Tsar and Tsarina were invited to visit Hanover.

6. The Hague, saw the Stadtholder hold a feast before leaving for London to see how preparations for fighting the famine were proceeding. At the feast Austria signified their agreement to Dutch truce proposals, though nothing had been heard from France.

The Dutch chancellor, Anthonie Heinsius, Grand Pensionary of Holland, made further proposals to the assembled in the name of peace.

7. In London the Lord Godolphin received a promotion from his Asante guests after the issue of where they should stay was finally put behind them.

8. The Kongelige Bank i Danmark experiment with paper currency appears to have run its course and deemed not worth carrying on with.

9. Extracts from results to appeals to the Court (of Agema) were published and if I’m reading it right so far there’ve been 25 decisions requested on various points between Austria and Spain.

10. Milan claims to be on the end of unwanted Japanese interference of behalf of Spain.

11. Rome gave Spain 100,000 tons of grain, apparently in return for asking Spain to recognise Papal clergy.

12. Kumasi saw The Akokohene, Keeper of the Great Chest, Yaw Osekyere make publicly known his displeasure at not receiving promised honours fast enough.

Fasting has been announced in Akwamufie

13. There is a new King of Siam – Welcome if you’re a new/returning player.

14. Japan saw confusion over who and where the Great Lords should be visiting. It wasn’t the Emperor, which seems to have displeased him.

Meanwhile another notable man rescued Misako from the evil Ling-Fe and his tricks. There seems to be a budding romance between Yoshimune and Misako.

Thanks to Marshall as always for his newspaper summary.

9. Extracts from results to appeals to the Court (of Agema) were published and if I’m reading it right so far there’ve been 25 decisions requested on various points between Austria and Spain.

Every Court ruling usually cover a number of points and these are summarised along with compliance and added to the list of decisions, which is detailed under the relevant treaty in a player’s papers.

Several verbatim Court rulings have been published in the newspaper and I hope players find this additional detail has added to their enjoyment of the game? It also highlights how much work Richard undertakes in the background when considering an apparently simple breach of treaty allegation.

Happy bank holiday!

I’m in France camping at the end of the month, just south of Orleans, so a few familiar game locations to visit!